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  1. Nihilanthic is offline

    Decafinated white belt.

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 3:08pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Choke - we don't see that kind of smashy smashy karate. We see "mcdojos" and "soft" people as a result, and those that compete become kickboxers more or less.

    Yes, all these hard kicks, hard punches, hard elbows, and hard knees are great, but the way most of them train (at least in the USA) SUCKS, if they even do the elbows and knees. And yes those huge swinging forearm blocks and chambering is kinda ridiculous. Why and how you do something, drilling techniques and counters, and sparring and hitting pads has worked MUCH better for me than doing kata. The closest thing I do to kata is a drill of a technique. But I'm actually hitting pads, or shoving my partner and throwing a roundhouse into the back of his knee...

    So, yet again, I'm gonna plug Muay Thai here. But the one thing Karate has on MT is that they try to condition the knuckles for bare-knuckle fighting. Personally I'd like to see how hands are used differently without gloves, but honestly al I think it means is that you need to use parries more - that "shield" can get your hand bones smashed, so you nee to put it up more and take it on the forearms I suppose.

    <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
    <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
    Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."
  2. Freddy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 3:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The type of karate that is taught in North America in most part is bullshit. You go to Japan its considered like going to a boot camp. You dont just train a few nights a week. You train very hard. Its no joking matter over there its taken very seriously.

    "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  3. Choke is offline

    The REAL thread killer

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 5:11pm


     Style: World 10-3 Ryu Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Choke - we don't see that kind of smashy smashy karate. We see "mcdojos" and "soft" people as a result, and those that compete become kickboxers more or less."

    I'm not blaming the public for thinking what it does about Karate styles. But it would be wrong for me to not speak up and stick up for my instructors who spend alot of time and effort training me - for free.

    "Yes, all these hard kicks, hard punches, hard elbows, and hard knees are great, but the way most of them train (at least in the USA) SUCKS, if they even do the elbows and knees."

    All those strikes are done during sparring. The only way to know how to apply strikes in reality against a moving/attacking/defending opponent is during kumite.

    "And yes those huge swinging forearm blocks and chambering is kinda ridiculous."

    I don't know what this means. The only Karate block I ever had a problem with is the downward block. That is just dumb. The hard blocking system in Karate are done with explosive speed and are meant to be a "striking" block. Those are meant for telegraphic, commited strikes. If a Karateka sees his opponent throwing jabs out and hitting in combos than he'll switch to a "sparring" mode and use zone blocking like a kickboxer.

    "Why and how you do something, drilling techniques and counters, and sparring and hitting pads has worked MUCH better for me than doing kata."

    Most Karate schools,McDojo or not, hit pads/heavy bags as well as kata. Kata is not a replacement for drills or sparring that is stupid! Noone in there right mind thinks that.

    "The type of karate that is taught in North America in most part is bullshit."

    I agree, however, my school isn't like that so there is no reason for me to remain silent. The statement "Karate mostly sucks in the States" is way more accurate than just saying "Karate sucks". However Karate without contact sparring and strenuous physical workouts is hardly Karate at all. It's like BJJ without rolling.




    _______________________________________
    Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
    I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
    To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
    Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
    "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

    -- George Bernard Shaw
  4. FingerorMoon? is offline

    The man they call FoM

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 8:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what is a scissor block ?
    The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
    - Pizdoff
  5. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 8:33pm


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what is often perceived as a chamber and block sequence is not that at all.

    in fact the chamber, the moving of the hand toward the body is a block in itself.

    in isshinryu, they use a hip chamber. pull the right fist back on the hip in the classic chamber and with a circular motion 'stack' the left fist on top of the right, then step out and block with the left arm, any basic outer block, followup with the right reverse punch.

    my point of view is different.

    first, the chamber and stack is a defense against a rear grabbing attack. the left arm 'wards', meaning it rounds the back to make you more difficult to encircle. and its movement path is natural for grabbing the wrist to counter a choke. the right hand delivers an elbow to the floating ribs.

    second interpretation,

    when the left hand is moving in to complete the chamber/stack, this is actually an inward block or a hook punch counter. then you deliver the right punch.

    third interpretation,

    from a natural position, you grab attacker by the crotch or belt and pull his hips towards you with your right hand(punch chamber). simoultaneously, you strike with a left hook punch, or use the left arm to bar his chest/neck to press his upper body back while you pull his lower body forward, and as he starts to fall, step in and deliver a reverse punch to the neck or jaw( to hasten your fall).

    to be sure the 'basic' form has to modified with changes in footwork and timing for these various applications, but it is still all the same 'pattern' of movement. and show me the art that doesnt require variation in application from 'form' and i will eat my hat.

    concerning the down block. here is the best 'interpretation' imo. it is a 'gunt', or limb destruction. using a backfist(knuckles) or hammerfist( these are dependant on the style, some use flat blocking and others use edge blocking), strike the kick of the opponent in sensitive areas like the ankle or knee area. striking ninety degrees to line of kick is a good basic way to do this technique, although a forward cutting '45' is better, at least for me. used this way it is a counter attack, not a block, by its standard definition.

    if 'karate' blocks dont accomplish one of the following purposes, then they fall into the 'useless' category.

    limb destruction- hit the limb so hard it is either damaged or the attacker fears to use it again for fear of a repeat limb destruct

    centerline breaking- the block should disturb his balance and structure, it not destroy it completely

    positioning- soft blocks use subtle controls of the centerline to set up strikes. often they will pull or draw you off balance as well.

    the 'blocks' that suck are the ones that just 'bonk' your attackers limb, leaving his balance intact, and allowing him to retract in order to defend, or just continue through with his attack combination. this is generally coupled with far too long of a delay between the block and the punch.

    you cant debunk entire styles( with some obvious exceptions) based on any group of practitioners. even if the 'system' as they practice it is flawed, it doesnt change the validity of the system. it is in how it is used.

    blocks can be great weapons if used correctly, and karate is definately underrated. hell, i used to take it,and at the same time, often doubted its efficiency and usefulness. now i know better.

    shotokan block...



    peace.

    <marquee>REDANTKUNTAO</marquee>
    <marquee> INDONESIAN GUNG FU</marquee>
  6. J-kid is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 9:02pm


     Style: MMA-Vale Tudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I never said anything on karate before this thread.

    My true thoughts on it. Its a mostly crappy martial art with flawed ideas on what will happen in a fight. Now there are some who make it work and i tip my hat to them. But most are just jokes doing useless high blocks and flying kicks. Considering that there are so many Karate schools, Like TKD schools gives me and most people this impression about it and i am sure somewhere it is probley studyed and used effectively.
    Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
    -Styles i train in-
    Judo
    Bjj
    Mtkickboxing
    Western boxing
    Wrestling
  7. Boyd is offline
    Boyd's Avatar

    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 9:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    in isshinryu, they use a hip chamber. pull the right fist back on the hip in the classic chamber and with a circular motion 'stack' the left fist on top of the right, then step out and block with the left arm, any basic outer block, followup with the right reverse punch.
    We actually stopped chambering blocks when we realized that's a surefire way to get your ass kicked. There's applications for what you described, sure, but it's not the formal way of practicing in most sane schools. But then, just from what Sensei tells me and from what I see online, there's a lot of crazy **** Isshin-Ryu schools still do.


    "I do injoy using words like **** **** bitch ho etc."
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

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    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  8. Choke is offline

    The REAL thread killer

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 10:00pm


     Style: World 10-3 Ryu Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Karate blocks can be really devasting with a kubaton or knife in your hand. Just wanted to throw that in. Even the good ole downward block.

    Could you imagine throwing a whip roundhouse kick and having some stick your shin or instep with a kubaton? A high upward block with an escrima running down your forearm is badass too.

    _______________________________________
    Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
    I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
    To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
    Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
    "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

    -- George Bernard Shaw
  9. flashpoint111 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 10:35pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that many MMA type people downplay karateka because too many traditional artists have spouted off and then gotten killed by punks in the street.Karate is a worthwhile study,if you train hard in a legit. style under a true master.However,if you want to take Joe Average and turn him into a "war machine" within 6 months or so,nothing beats the combo of boxing,wrestling,muay thai, BJJ,and Western weight training.
  10. Kail is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2003 10:36pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And Judo, what would your experience and exposure to karate styles and schools be?

    You do realize that "useless high blocks" in many styles are employed as something other than a block? Or you don't, which puts you in the large group with less knowledge on the matter than you think you have. Don't see a lot of flying kicks in traditional karate either. ISKA's brand of competitions are not traditional karate for the most part, maybe single divisions you won't see on TV, no matter what someone is trying to sell.

    "Useless blocks" tend to come from a lack of power and good application. They should, inflict pain, disturb balance, deflect the attack or shift their centerline/direction. When completing the traditional chest block, at least as I've been taught, one hand folds over the other, left over right say. This gives the chest a shield of sorts if the block's other components should fail. The left hand is the "blocking hand", the right, as it crossed the body to fold in, has acted as a parry, taking the attack out of line. Now the left hand can, dependant on wheather you went to the inside or out, strike with a sharp backfist to the face or work limb manipulation to get the opponent further out of line. The simple, basic, application taught on day one isn't always what its used for, but its the one that works with a beginer's mind the best.

    Kata, God, its an up hill battle to get this through to people. And yeah, many of those same people are doing kata all the time and don't know what they are for. They exist as a string of techniques, mostly two, three and sometimes four part combos that can be worked, not always with the obvious application as with the "chest block", and are put together for various reasons. Those reasons can include, but are not limited to, similar principle to be imparted, same body parts being attacked, similar attack types countered, common transitional movements. The depth is there, but a lot of people either don't have the patients to dig for it and move on thinking they didn't learn anything, or don't have good instruction to even try to point them that direction. Others are hobbiests, who like to go in and work out a few times a week, that's fine too, as long as they realize that.

    Point fighting, well I'm of a mixed mind on that. Some of the "point fighting" I've done in karate places was rough as hell continous action where hitting the floor just meant you got stomped. I liked that once I could handle it, and as long as no one loses their temper. Other stuff has been light, tip tap junk that just bored the hell out of me. Didn't like it, tried to avoid it at all costs. The first is good stuff, the second is often the result of insurance and lawsuit worries. Little Jonny's mom brings him down to learn karate, because he has no discipline at home, doesn't think anything about the fact its a place to learn to fight. Jonny gets a busted lip and a black eye sparring, mom wigs out and sues the pants off the school owner for abusing her angel. Its not the only reason I know, but its a major contributing factor. The AAU has some good sparring rules that allow for sweeps and throws, on hardwood floors even, if they would losen up their head contact rules for adult comeptitors they would have a good start.

    Now I'm just rambling, but I get tired of karate getting a bad rap because not all of those that practice it are professional fighters. Yes, there are bad schools, and lots of them. There are also good schools that train hard and turn out good fighters, but in my experience, you don't find them in the yellow pages too often. But, I doubt that will make a whit of difference to many here. They've had their bad experience and it soured them completely. Wish it hadn't, but at least most are still training in something. Which means those of us that stuck with karate and train hard have other folks around to train hard and share ideas with.
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