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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/09/2005 12:16pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting read. Thanks SB. I like the boat stability reference. It would explain the weird stance.

    Funny if this turned out to be true and the stance was wrong because of where it was used.
  2. Blooming lotus is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 12:49am


     Style: gongfu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Guy
    Extremely interesting. It is nice to see posts like that.

    What is also interesting is that everyone goes on about Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun, but no-one ever discusses the possibility that there were other students around at the time who learnt the art. I always hear stories about the Shaolin Temple producing the art (rather than the usual 'Ng Mui built and gave it to Yim Wing Chun to beat off her suitor'), and wonder as to whether there might be lineages/small schools out there that are practising the original wing chun taught in the temples.

    For the record, I do not like talk of 'pure wing chun' - I am sure Yip Man changed it, I am sure Yim Wing Chun changed it!! It doesn't make the art better or worse

    'bout time this WC history thing was rehashed!... Firstly on this above, if ng / mg mui/moi 'built' and gave etc etc + other families simultaneously were practicing the same thing - then you are not talking about it's origin... you're talking about a wide spread applicatively vulnerable to individual consideration somewhat pre-developed system....
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 1:40am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This and other storys is discussed at length here:

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...0&page=1&pp=15

    Post #203 at:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...&page=14&pp=15

    specifically covers this story from Pan Nam


    In short, Tan Sau Ng lived in the wrong time frame to be the founder and the story puts him in the North learning Shaolin, not the South. Sifu Pan Nams story is from a recent source, possibly made up strictlly BECAUSE a person in history was found to have the name Tan Sau.

    "Tan Sau" is also a form of begging for money, and in that time would have been a secret technique, not a nickname. Tan Sau Ng would then make more sense as the name of a begger, which he was forced to become when the Opera was made illegal at that time.

    Always trying to find the middle path, I can see that maybe he was a source of the revolution and opera style 100 years before the style of Wing Whatever was created. It still seems that someone is missing from this story.

    At the other link I outline a connection to White Crane, which seems also to be a more plausable origin.

    Maybe the two lines crossed on the Red Junks?

    as to the stance, it does seem to make sense for on Chinese boats. Have you seen Southern Chinese fishing boats? Basically a log with a basket tied on top and a gaggle of Cormorants to catch fish for you. Having been an Arborist and tree climber I can tell you that Adduction stance is very good on a narrow branch (log) bobbing in the wind.

    :new_usa:

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  4. Blooming lotus is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 2:43am


     Style: gongfu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No - tan sao would make sense to call someone in living in the temple.... with no job.... and that's life here.. and it still happens to some degree today. ..in the temple 'and' on Mt.Song.



    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    I cut and pasted this from the link provided. Both articles while quite different agree that the nun story is a myth and that Wing Chun was connected to Chinese Opera groups.

    "The Secret History of Wing Chun: The Truth Revealed
    (also appeared as "Wing Chun Controversy: Is this the truth about Wing Chun's History")
    By Benny Meng and Alfredo Delbrocco
    "The first casualty when war comes is truth."
    -- Hiram Johnson


    Preface
    Although the world itself has not gotten smaller, life in the Information Technology Age (via the media of email and Internet) has made contact and communication with people around the globe easier. Consequently, it is now harder for information and research to be constrained or concealed, or for only one perspective to be put forward. Most importantly, it means that certain myths will not be perpetuated. Information pointing to the historical origins of Wing Chun kung fu is one of them.

    Put simply, the harsh truth is this: the myth of the Buddhist nun, Ng Mui and her disciple Yim Wing Chun, the supposed founders of the Wing Chun system, is just that - a myth. As the internet has brought information more readily to us, it has come to light that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and the identities of the political rebels who truly developed it.

    After almost 400 years, mounting evidence is pointing to the truth of Wing Chun's creation and evolution. The question is: is the kung fu world ready for it?

    There is no doubt that the information about to be disclosed will ruffle feathers to say the least. This is mainly because many Wing Chun instructors throughout the world are naively, and through no fault of their own, imparting a romanticized, fantastical history of the Wing Chun system. They are telling and retelling a story that is little more than a fairytale.

    A view of the traditional legends with an eye on history reads as an even more fascinating point of view. And no less deserving of the term `legendary'...


    Secrets in the Shadows of Shaolin
    As near as history can testify, Wing Chun was developed around 400 years ago in a time of civil unrest. Between 1644 to 1911, the Manchurians ruled China, where 10% of the population (the Manchus) ruled over 90% of the population (the Hons). To maintain control over the Hons, the Manchus ruled with an iron fist. Aggression and oppression were the cornerstones of the Dynasty and the Hons were banned from using weapons or training in the martial arts. Thus, in order to overthrow their oppressors, rebel activity was instigated by martial arts masters in hiding.

    Rebel activity developed rapidly in the Buddhist monasteries, which were largely left alone by the Manchus out of respect for the Buddhist culture and religion. These Shaolin/Siu Lam sanctuaries were ideal places for renegades to conceal themselves - they simply shaved their heads and donned the monastic robes of the disciples of the temple. During the day, the rebels would earn their keep by doing chores around the temple. At night, they would gather to formulate their plans to overthrow the Manchus.

    There are some that maintain that Shaolin/Siu Lam sanctuaries possessed no political leanings. They further emphasize that the Buddhist teachings of these monasteries would have prevented their support for rebels and secret societies. Such a position is emotional at best with no grounding in historical fact. Religious leaders throughout history, in both the Western as well as the Eastern world, have influenced politics and government since the beginning of time. Churches have forever harbored political victims sought by authorities believed to be oppressive. In the case China, serious precedent for such behavior on the part of the monasteries had already been set 400 years earlier. As verified by Ving Tsun Museum research, Jyu Yuhn Jeung, the man who led the Chinese revolt against the Mongol and established the Ming Dynasty was himself a Buddhist monk.

    Upon meeting, the revolutionaries identified themselves to each other with a secret hand-signal that would come to be the formal greeting or courtesy of Wing Chun. In fact, the traditional greeting or courtesy common to many of today's kung fu styles has two meanings. The first meaning recognizes the style's Shaolin origins - the left hand symbolizing the union of the Green Dragon (the left hand) and the White Tiger (the right hand), the fighting animals of the Shaolin monks.

    In the Hung Fa Yi (Red Flower Righteous) Lineage of Wing Chun, however, the hands are reversed: the left hand forms a fist and the right hand is open palm. It still retains its significance to Shaolin but it also refers to the secret society. In this context, the fist represents Yat (the Sun) and the palm represents Yuet (the Moon). Combined, these two characters mean "Bright" which reads and sounds like "Ming." This is the name of the previous Dynasty - the one overthrown by the Manchurians who formed the "Ching" Dynasty in its place. Hence, during the time of rebellion, when a Wing Chun practitioner or secret society member saluted with a fist and open palm pushed toward you, they were saying "Return the Ming, overturn the Ching." Obviously, this was not a sentiment shared by the Manchus.

    Late in the 1600's, the Manchurians became concerned about the Siu Lam Temples' rebellious activities and their continual development of the fighting arts. Therefore, they sent spies (many of them Manchu military leaders) to infiltrate the rebels and learn the traditional Southern fist systems as taught secretly in the Temples. The rebel kung-fu masters, realizing this, clandestinely developed a new system that was two-fold in purpose: firstly, it had to be learned quickly and efficiently, and secondly, it had to be devastatingly effective against the existing fighting systems that the Manchus were learning and teaching to their soldiers. Thus, Wing Chun was born.

    Their spy rings compromised, the Manchus decided to eliminate the threat of spreading rebel activity by simply exterminating the Siu Lam monks. Eventually, the Southern Siu Lam Temple was burned and destroyed.

    Extensive research conducted by the Ving Tsun Museum points to a generation of inheritors following the Southern temple's burning. Among them was a gentleman named Cheung Ng (referred to as Tan Sao Ng in other texts). Of this generation of inheritors, Cheung Ng is one to date that has proven to have historically existed. After establishing the Beautiful Flower Society Association (the precursor to the Red Opera and the public name for the Red Flower Society) and providing Wing Chun training to the secret societies, Cheung Ng went into hiding, disappearing from the public eye to escape Qing Dynasty persecution.

    He was hidden by distant relatives, a Fuk Gin business family named Chahn. The Chahn Sih Sai Ga (Chan family) were well established and wealthy. Through indirect action they were willing to help Cheung Ng. Staying with the family for over a decade, Cheung Ng taught the family the art of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It was preserved by the family for four generations before it was taught to outsiders. The direct members of the Chahn family were never directly involved with the secret societies themselves, resulting in a low profile in Praise Spring Boxing history. The last generation of the Chahn family to learn the art was a distant nephew, a high level secret society leader, Huhng Gan Biu. In Qing archives as well as historical research into Chinese secret societies, a person by the name of Chahn Biu was recorded as the leader of the Heaven and Earth Society. He was caught and executed by the Qing authorities. Due to similar names appearing in difference sources at around the same timeframe, there is much debate as to whether the Opera's Biu and the Heaven and Earth Society's Biu were the same person. According to members of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan, Huhng Gan Biu was the 4th generation leader of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun clan and his Wing Chun descendants have preserved the system through to the 8th generation Master Garrett Gee and his 9th generation students in today's modern era.

    It was at the fourth generation that history and truth parted ways and the myth of Wing Chun's origins was created.

    The Myth of Ng Mui and The Truth About Yim Wing Chun To protect the identities of the creators and the perpetuators of the Wing Chun system, a smokescreen was thrown up in the form of a story - the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun.

    The legend was told that among the survivors of the Shaolin/Siu Lam massacres was a Buddhist nun named Ng Mui. Ng Mui was believed to have been the sole custodian of a streamlined, highly practical and effective martial arts developed within the temples. In turn, Ng Mui is said to have passed her knowledge onto her chosen disciple, a young girl named Yim Wing Chun. As Yim Wing Chun taught the system to others, it became known as Wing Chun. The story spread and today many versions of it exist around the world.

    However, there are three important considerations to make when regarding the story of Ng Mui. Firstly, outside of the legend, there is no other evidence that Ng Mui - in her capacity as a kung-fu grandmaster or founder of a kung-fu system actually existed - no records, no historical documents - nothing. Secondly, it would have been forbidden for a nun to live in, let alone train within, a celibate monastic environment like the Siu Lam /Shaolin Temples. Thirdly, and perhaps the most important, after escaping from a life and death situation as a revolutionary, it does not make sense that Ng Mui would teach an advanced level fighting system to a local girl with romantic problems and no connection to the revolution. At that time in Chinese history, the Qing dynasty had devised a special form of punishment for traitors and rebels. After being made to confess his or her crimes, the guilty party was executed. Afterwards, Qing officials would hunt down members of the guilty party's family down to nine generations and execute them as traitors as well. Teaching Yim Wing Chun a martial arts would directly put her life at risk.

    With regards to the Yim Wing Chun element of the legend, consider once more the relevance of secret rebel societies. `Yim' can be translated to mean `prohibit' or `secret.' The term `Wing Chun' referred to a geographic location - the Siu Lam Wing Chun Tong (Always Spring Hall), where the rebels perhaps practiced martial arts and orchestrated their seditious activities. The use of the term Spring symbolized the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty and Always referred to the reestablished dynasty lasting forever. After the destruction of the Southern Shaolin temple and its Wing Chun Tong, the survivors changed the character of Wing from Always to Praise. The term Praise referred to the fact that the revolutionaries had to spread the word about the revolution after the destruction of their base. Thus, `Yim Wing Chun' was actually a codename, meaning (protect) the secret art of the Wing Chun Hall.

    If we now know that the destruction of the Siu Lam/Shaolin Temples occurred but that the story of Ng Mui was a diversion, the question remains: who were the real custodians of the Wing Chun system?


    Enter the Hung Suen
    We do know that many (not the legendary five) monks and rebel leaders escaped the Manchurian massacres and that, to aid the secrecy of the system, historical material was passed directly from teacher to student. Thus, the elders told of two Siu Lam monks/rebels who survived the temple raids and were able to keep their Wing Chun system alive. One of these was a monk, a 22nd generation Siu Lam Grandmaster, Yat Chum Dai Si from the Northern Shaolin temple. The other was a rebel training under him in the Southern Temple, named Cheung Ng. Fleeing the Manchurian persecutors, Cheung Ng founded the Kihng Fa Wui Gun (Beautiful Flower Society), the roots of the (in)famous Hung Suen (Red Boat) Opera Troupe.

    Historically, we know that rebel activity flourished in the Red Boat Opera Troupe. The Red Boats allowed talented stage performers, accomplished in kung-fu and gymnastics, to form their own secret societies to overthrow the Manchu Dynasty. The Troupes provided the ideal sanctuary for fleeing rebels as the performers wore elaborate costumes and stage make-up, providing excellent but natural/plausible disguises for them. Additionally, the performers adopted and were known by their `stage-names', further cloaking their secret identities.

    When Cheung Ng founded the Opera Troupe he became known as Tan Sao Ng - not only a stage-name but also a sly nod to his skillful deployment of the Wing Chun deflection/striking technique, Tan Sao.

    An important fact to note is that so suspicious of the Manchus and their spies were these secret societies, that the true identities of the leaders, members and real nature of their activities were known only to an inner-circle within the society. Thus, genuine knowledge of kung-fu was passed only from a master to select, trusted disciples, thus protecting the purity and origins of the system.

    In conclusion
    With the development of many different lineages of Wing Chun over the centuries (over 10 are known to date), Wing Chun could simply be seen as a generic name for a style with so many lineages - no different to `karate' being a generic term to describe the various Japanese arts - varying and similar. However, this article has focussed on shedding light on the origins of Wing Chun. Indeed, to chart the development of the various lineages would require an entire book more complete than anything currently written. A complete historical and political analysis of Wing Chun's origins and development is currently being compiled in book form by the Ving Tsun Museum and should be available through major publication sources within the next twelve months.

    A hypothesis that Cheung Ng was indeed the inheritor of the art from Southern Temple and the guiding force behind its employment as a complete combat training system for rebels certainly has more historical weight behind it than the legend of a young girl. It represents a much more plausible explanation of Wing Chun's roots considering the completeness of the art in terms of total combat effectiveness. It also gels with the historical background of the times preceding the Red Boat Opera travels. However, as with all historical study, one hypothesis can give great impetus to further in depth study giving rise to even more revelations. In short, more study grounded in the proper structure and atmosphere of true historical research will get us even closer to reality. Hats off to the Ving Tsun Museum staff and researchers for moving our search into the realm of scientific investigation and giving us another starting point for serious research!

    Myths are often created to simplify something or to disguise the true nature of the subject to make it more palatable to the mind. Consequently, sometimes people want to believe the myths despite scientific or historical evidence to the contrary. A fiction can be more comforting than the truth; a fairytale easier to grasp than a treatise. The legend of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is a great story. It just isn't true.

    In light of being told one story for centuries, it will be difficult for some to accept the truth in minutes, hours or even months. But studying the martial arts (and Wing Chun in particular) is a continual quest for truth - personal truth, social truth, spiritual truth and - yes - historical truth.


    I trust you have enjoyed your enlightenment on the true origins of Wing Chun.


    An internationally published author, Sifu Benny Meng is the founder and Curator of the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton, OH, USA. A practitioner of Wing Chun for over 15 years, Sifu Meng has come into contact with most of the major families in Wing Chun. More information is available on the Ving Tsun Museum at http://www.vtmuseum.org or by mail at 5715 Brandt Pike, Dayton, OH 45424, phone/fax (937) 236-6485.

    Sifu Alfredo Del-Brocco has been training in Wing Chun for over 15 years, firstly under the guidance of Grand Master William Cheung, then under Master Rick Spain. Today he teaches around 350 active students in his Brisbane Kwoon. Sifu Alfredo was also the recipient of the 1998 Australasian Blitz Kung Fu Instructor of the Year Award. Sifu Alfredo can be contacted at http://www.wckfo.com.au or by phone / fax : (07) 3229 8694"




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    last updated : June 20, 2001 at 6:47pm EST




    It's probably fairly important to say here that everyone has a story regarding this, and everyone has despite lack of written record of the era, some 'proof' or other or something that correlates their take.

    On not making sense Ng Mui - why a puported buddhist nun, would take in a troubled youngster and give her grounding in martial artistry she then taught to a friend who cared enough to want to protect her from unwanted attention - imo makes alot of sense.... how else 'would' a shaolin buddhist nun in that situation adequately deal with that?? ....... that 's her way to peace and no doubt she'd want to share that...


    On nuns living at shaolin temples ........ actutally,... if you've ever been to shaolin si - there are still nuns living there on the mountain today! I've seen them. There are only 5 there and only 20 in existance today . They do live seperately but they're there and are only yards from the men and they convene together all the time .....


    Next , the red junk opera has been recording having existed all over the place .... and by nearly 'all' of those accounts , the trails comes back to the 5 elders of shaolin and by all accounts NG mui was one of those and created Wingchun .... particularly the pressure points ppl tried for yrs to tell me didn't exist in WC ....

    Now if you know anything about chinese dynasty history, you also know that it was during a period of Kanxi rule when that first southern temple was raized and the temple inhabitants spilt. AS it turns out, Ng Mui apparently was at that temple and it was at that time 1644 -1911 dynasty that Wing Chun was also meant to have been founded.

    Knowing the history of the triad family and their wing chun rooting , who we know to practice Wing Chun , were notorious Anti- Manchurians and were practicing their martial artistry in secret societies as early as the Ming dynasty prior Qing http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...hp?article=526 , It is my opinion that it is as you said , there were families practicing earlier but until the Manchu raided and ppl had to seek refuge in the temples, it was practiced fairly freely and for a time before it came to notice in the Fujian raiding. Now 'that' makes much more sense than anything else I've been hearing for the last many yrs and where there's smoke there's fire.


    Kalaraypait is an indian martial art. It contains pressure points , as does wing chun, and being buddha was from India , it is reported that bodhidharma also studied this art. It makes sense that perhaps NgMui, being a shaolin nun, and follwer of bodhidharma w/could've also learnt that and incorperated into what the native families were already practicing , and then when kangxi came along, and everything condensed into the temple pre- raizing, that through Chueng Ng, also apparently at the temple and having been out in secular family life practicing his familie's style , as others there , that WC is what they ended up with. Particularly Himself having the Ng handle, and likely to have originated from herself, as is and or was often the trend.
    I'm seeing two to three to four totally differtent splits here myself and hence the varying origin 'myths'. ..
    Again, all this stuff is documented in the Wing Chun Musuem. I plan to visit there myself at some stage maybe next year, but it too correlates that NG mui gave birth to Wing chun and included pressure points in her system. There is also information pointing to Chueng Ng.

    There is also evidence that supports that the original triad family was playing a wing chun base form pre- actual style naming or acknowledgement.

    ZReally long story and while I've got to show some respect for Sifu Alfredo De - Brocco, I think he's wrong, I think he's under-read and providing she doesn't retire before I get home, I'm also taking his wife's gongdu world title ........using wing chun .

    cheers

    Blooming Lotus
    Last edited by Blooming lotus; 12/12/2005 2:56am at .
  5. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 3:17am


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blooming lotus
    'bout time this WC history thing was rehashed!... Firstly on this above, if ng / mg mui/moi 'built' and gave etc etc + other families simultaneously were practicing the same thing - then you are not talking about it's origin... you're talking about a wide spread applicatively vulnerable to individual consideration somewhat pre-developed system....
    Exactly. But what I am questioning is did Ng Mui really build it herself or was it shown to her as part of the Shaolin system. I have heard that when the Emperor destroyed the Shaolin temples only a few monks escaped, and Ng was one of them. Therefore there might have been a lineage before her
  6. EternalRage is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 3:28am

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1) Cheung Ng brought his skills to Fatshan during the reign of Yung Cheng. This was forty to fifty years before the reign of Kin Lung (1736-1795). It was almost a hundred years before the legend of Yim Wing Chun, which fell within the Ham Fung (1851-1861) and Dao Kwong (1821-1850) years.
    This is new prospect. Wonder if there's any historical documentation.

    2) Tan sau is a technique unique to Wing Chun. Cheung Ng was famous for his tan sau. Cheung Ng actually taught martial arts in Fatshan Hung Suen (Red Boat). And Fatshan was the breeding ground of Wing Chun.
    tan sao unique to WC? does he realize that there's not many ways of doing a block with the palm facing up and the arm moving upwards/to the side? plenty of other chinese martial arts do this...

    3) Some years ago, my Kung Fu clansman Pang Kam Fat told me that the Wing Chun stance is best used on boats for stability. Looking further, the various sets of martial arts strokes and practice areas are closely related to practice on narrow boats.
    This sounds alot like "TKD has kicks because in ancient Korea they had to kick off bandits off horses" or some junk like that. Associating purpose of technique to ancient artifacts is purely correlative at best.

    4)Before the skills were handed down to Leung Jan, the people connected, including Leung Lan Kwai, 'Painted Face Kam', Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tei, all belonged to the Hung Suen (Red Boat).
    I feel this is probably his strongest point, albeit still correlative at best and not a direct concrete link, but it's better than stories about Yim Wing Chun. As much as I'd like to believe in an uber hottie with the ultimate martial arts skill, we all know that's some poor ancient chunner's wet dream.
  7. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 5:12am


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    This is new prospect. Wonder if there's any historical documentation..
    Is there any historical documentation regarding Ng Mui teaching Yim Wing Chun??

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    tan sao unique to WC? does he realize that there's not many ways of doing a block with the palm facing up and the arm moving upwards/to the side? plenty of other chinese martial arts do this....
    I agree - I am sure that there are some schools of Tai Chi that do somethig similar to a tan sao

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    This sounds alot like "TKD has kicks because in ancient Korea they had to kick off bandits off horses" or some junk like that. Associating purpose of technique to ancient artifacts is purely correlative at best..
    I disagree. If you spend your days farming boats and standing on them, you start thinking about stances. It's similar to when I get the train to work. I always try to adopt my stance to counter the effects of inertia.

    It is wholly possible that the stance was adpoted through this

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    I feel this is probably his strongest point, albeit still correlative at best and not a direct concrete link, but it's better than stories about Yim Wing Chun. As much as I'd like to believe in an uber hottie with the ultimate martial arts skill, we all know that's some poor ancient chunner's wet dream.
    To be honest, I would rather have an art with no past. The stories of Yim Wing Chun are good to inspire females into taking up the art but that's about it.

    Someone once told me that wing chun was devised by a monk who was watching a snake fight a crane. The crane was using big movements with its wing to deflect the snake (like bong sao) and the snake was moving its whole body to avoid the crane's beak. It's nice to believe this thing, but I expect that the truth is a bit simpler (some guy just came up with it!)
  8. Blooming lotus is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 7:08am


     Style: gongfu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    exactly. Maybe the guy who does all the writing for wheeties boxes made it up for your morning entainment?? .... see 'that's' plausible. ;)
  9. Kamon Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 7:15am


     Style: Wing Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blooming lotus
    exactly. Maybe the guy who does all the writing for wheeties boxes made it up for your morning entainment?? .... see 'that's' plausible. ;)
    Ah but were Wheeties around in the 16th century??
  10. Devildog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/12/2005 8:08am


     Style: Hwardo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have heard both stories and was unsure as to which one was true. Thanks for what I believe to be clarity on the subject.
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