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  1. frankyL is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 11:40am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, lets look at logic. If you can strike with consistency, accurately and with power, speed, then how can someone take your stick/weapon away? Forget the silly twirling and fake wrist hits which peopleso without any balance or power. Unless you are really a sap and extend your arm, or a real sap and not hitting with any commitment or it is pre-arranged, or a real sap and telegraphing the hit...???? Then why are people teaching other people to take weapons away? Are they not putting people in danger with a false perception? What is the value?? Oh wait, I forgot....you can off line or deflect the hit.......right! So you know when your opponent is going to hit you....how fast he is...how skilled he is, and how powerful he is...... and after all that, you opponent is always standing in front of you......like in class..........ahhhhhh.
    Please someone explain......
    Please, a real answer, not a traditional or my teacher said, or it worked when I was attacked by 20 Hells Angels type answer.
  2. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 12:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll give you a non B.S. answer.

    Club defense, just like knife defense, is not designed to work against an Escrima master. There are simply not that many Escrima Masters or Navy Seals walking around using weapons that you should be concerned about confronting that type of person. You should be worried about the guy who had a few rinks and gets pissed and wants to take a pipe out of his car and smash a few people as a result. The man that pulls a knife and wants your money is not going to be Brittiah S.A.S.. He probably knows that he needs to put the pointy part on the knife into something soft.

    Stick defenses can work against a guy who sreams like a fukking maniac and starts trying to take your head off with a broomstick. Thats self defense. Im really not worried about meeting a guy one day who wants my wallet but has trained for 20 years in Kali. I really doubt that will ever happen. And if it does, fuk it, I dont carry too much cash on me anyway, he can have the friggin thing.

    I can tell you a story about a true club defense. It had to do with a friend of mine getting wung at with that theivery prevention device The Club. The guy swung once and missed and before he brought the thing back up again he was tackled. There wasnt any 'De-Fanging' the snake, or twirls. Just 2 big guys who scuffled.

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  3. D.R. is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 12:30pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you know what the concept of "Zero Pressure" is? Disarming, regardless if you have a weapon or not and the other person has an impact weapon, relies on that. If you do not attempt at Zero Pressure, it is much harder and carries with it a greater chance of injury...

    Understand that most disarms in FMAs are predicated on the hand or wrist being destroyed or at least severely damaged and then something else "X" happens.

    Your post is a little fuzzy on particulars, however, as to where you want to go with this...
  4. D.R. is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 12:33pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can tell you a story about a true club defense. It had to do with a friend of mine getting wung at with that theivery prevention device The Club. The guy swung once and missed and before he brought the thing back up again he was tackled. There wasnt any 'De-Fanging' the snake, or twirls. Just 2 big guys who scuffled.
    That's Zero Pressure. The tackle happened at a point of Zero Pressure. Zero Pressure is the chambering of the strike or the completion of the strike which in this case I am guessing he was chambering for a backhand strike and was tackled.

    See? No mystical, magical bullshit. Just solid mechanics.
  5. DJ Coldfusion is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 1:09pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Stick / Knife / Weapon disarms in general are "incidental if not accidental" in real combat.

    Most of the time you do what you can to disable the attacker's weapon arm and then you hit them in the head until they leave you alone. That's it, Kali in a snapshot.

    I study Kali, I teach it on rare occasion to non-FMA schools and students. And you're right. Disarms are a bitch to get when you're going 100%. But they still happen.

    Many disarms are trained out of set/prearranged "flows" like a box-set sumbrada that has three defined strikes that are repeated over and over again (first one participant strikes, then the other as they cycle through the set) There are different box set and different ways of approaching them. The student first learns the flow, and then they learn to break the flow. The more advanced students approach the box-set type drills as more of a range (as in distance) of practice where the angles and the order are not set.

    The real key to any disarm is familiarization with the line of attack and an understanding of timing. There are only so many directions an attack can come from and there are only so many ways a person can swing a stick along one of those lines of attack. To understand timing the student must have a stick swung at their head. They have to learn to respect the stick, understand the lines of attack, and learn to get the hell out of the way and protect themselves when they canít get out of the way (blocks) before they can begin to look at disarms.

    Disarms should always be practiced last. But they should be practiced.
  6. ksmythe is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 1:56pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I train Escrima also. The best disarm is just to beat the living hell out the guy.
  7. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 4:22pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You might have to take a hit to get a dissarm or a tekedown. Just protect your vital targets. Either that or stay the hell back and look for a stick of your own. Hit his hand with it and go right to his head.
  8. DJ Coldfusion is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 5:04pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kali has twelve areas of study, disarms is a minor part that appears in (I believe) four of the twelve areas.

    9chambers and ksmythe gave some good advice (tongue in cheek as ksmythe's comment may have been).

    But don't forget projectiles. Start throwing **** at him( rocks, dirts, chairs, the steel bumper off of that 64' Jeep on your front lawn), get him to pause or take a step backwards and then attack.

    If you don't have a weapon then find a weapon, even if it means taking one from your opponent.
  9. eskrima is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 6:29pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    frankyl,

    It appears that this is your contribution to attempt to discredit an art that has proven itself in actual war and combat time and time again.

    I don't know who you trained with, or if you have ever trained at all, but I would imagine that you either suck, or did not have a good teacher.

    "Ok, lets look at logic. If you can strike with consistency, accurately and with power, speed, then how can someone take your stick/weapon away? "

    Yes. Filipino Martial Arts works like this. You beat the guy down using very direct, practical and simple striking techniques with weapon or your body. Very simple.

    As for the disarming, well that is very simple too. It is a matter of anticipation and timing.

    Disarming isn't a very good idea against a good eskrima fighter. You are better off just killing him with your strikes.

    In the case of just some guy who picked up a weapon and wants to attack you, if you truly understand the art, dealing with this kind of threat should be simple because his strikes will be telegraphed, and if you have trained enough, you will recognize his attacks, and you react accordingly.

    However, if the guy has trained in eskrima, and you have no weapon, you will probably get beat down.

    What I want to know is, why do people always think FMA is always about disarms?
  10. Mercurius is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 6:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Eskrima, I think people are making connections based on insufficient data. First, they hear 'FMA is about knife-fighting' and second, they hear 'it also has empty hand techniques'. Well, 2+2=5, so they think, 'The empty hand techniques must be disarms so they can take away a knife'. Just a guess.

    Also, I heard once that the US Army lists Arnis/Escrima/Kali as 'the most deadly martial art'. When I heard that, I thought, "Dude, kick ass!" In a way, makes me more proud to be Filipino (more than lechon ever could).

    --------------------
    And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."
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