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  1. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2002 9:51pm

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     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MAN you really are ignorant Royal Dragon. Bruce Lee went AWAY from Wing Chun. He was reallt the FIRST guy to bring his type of theory, which is now basically considered FACT, to the public.

    He was one of the FIRST MMA practitioners. He studied movements from Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Wrestling, Boxing, Jiu Jitsu...

    You seem to know very little about the man except what you saw in his movies, which were MOVIES.

    The guy was VERY accomplished and a physical specimen. Some of the physical things he could do were AMAZING. Look at some of his students like Dan Inosanto. Your questioning HIM as well?!

    And I think that Bruce Lee would have destroyed ANY Bagua player that EVER lived. I also dont even think that is saying too much.....



    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  2. marty_farty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2002 10:35pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    we can thank the Japanese instructors for the thing about never asking questions. many of the japanese still teach that way. in most cases they DO NOT know the answer to your question because THEY never asked their own teacher any questions...well guess what mr japanese sensei this is north american and we want to know why, where, when and the big one WHAT IF?

    the Asian teachers who got with the program and were not afraid to answer the questions are some of the best teacher we have now BUT the ones who still dont allow any questions just have dumb followers or robots.

    (that being said too damn many questions during a class can be disruptive and take away from the work-out)

    remember when a new white belt ask too many WHAT IF, just tell them IF is a big word johnny and if you aunt had balls she would be your uncle :)
  3. Royal Dragon is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 8:14pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MAN you really are ignorant Royal Dragon. Bruce Lee went AWAY from Wing Chun. He was really the FIRST guy to bring his type of theory, which is now basically considered FACT, to the public.
    Reply]
    LOL!!, Bruce was just the first guy to LOUDLY state the obvious. Mean wile those who were studying MA's in China had been doing it all along, and it was no big secret.
    every major (and most minor) styles in chin are a long historical example of intermixing skills from any available sources.
    In the 1600's a Martial artist named Wong long spent the better part of his early development learning a multitude of styles (18 if I'm not mistaken), he then took what worked best for him and created his own style from it.
    Between 960 and 976 AD a warlord by the name of Chao, Kuang Yin after spending his life practicing every martial art he could get his hands on, distilled tem all down added his personal observations and created his own style of Long Fist.
    Around 600AD the Monks of the Shaolin Temple took movement form may fighting styles brought to them by outsiders, combined them with the Chi Gong classics of Da Mo and created the Louhan Boxing style. This style later went on to become the foundation that many others created new arts from.
    In each case, the creator had previous training and experience from a multitude of sources and took what was useful to them, and developed their own style.
    Like I said, Bruce lee did nothing more than go to the top of the highest tree and yell the obvious and then acted like he invented it when he knew damm well what he was doing was common practice in Chinese martial arts, and has been since it's inception. It is SO common infact, that no one really needed to talk about it. It would be like you trying to describe the process of pouring your self a beer and then drinking it. It would be stupid, everyone already knows how and there is no need to discuss it.
    Bruce I effect convinced everyone he had a totally new revolutionary way of pouring a beer, and drinking it, when in fact all he did was state the obvious in a really excited, loud way and everyone here in the US fell for it.
    Face it, he played everyone and got away with it.



    Edited by - Royal Dragon on August 28 2002 20:23:06
  4. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2002 8:59pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think YOU should face the fact that what the Shaolin do will never work in a real situation. what ruce Lee did was discard ALL that crap in favor of techniques that DO work. Most Chinese arts are only partly proficient in a single range. The same was true for many NON Chinese arts. Bruce Lee was aware of this limitation. I hate to bring up the UFC here but that was the next step in what Bruce Lee advocated. In that arena no cross trained Chinese Kung Fu artisits emerged. Have you ever hear of a guy named Ron Van Clief? He was Hong Kong Champion and os a MASTER of Chinese Goju. Hes been training for nearly 50 years. Why dont you give him a call in NYC and ask him if, in China, there were people training realistically in multiple ranges or styles....

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  5. SifuAbel is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2002 12:15am

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     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Uh no, Bruce never said to discard ALL that "crap".
    He said absorb what is usefull. If he would have lived longer, he would have modified this statement to read "see the abstract in your movement". You can never really discard something you don't understand.

    " Most Chinese arts are only partly proficient in a single range."

    And you would know this, how? By the few examples in UFC, don't make me laugh. Oops too late ROFL.
    Ron van cleif invented his own style. Goju is a japanese term. That should have clued you in.
    Clueless to the end.

    BTW if you knew anything about bruce lee, read his books, seen his training footage, talk to actual direct students of his, you would know he used wing chun as his primary hand striking style. He used northern styles of kung fu and other kicking styles to improve his leg ability. He did a heck of alot more abosorbing than discarding. And he surely didn't discard his kung fu.
    Realize also that in Bruces time the MA scene was much different than it is today, and much more dominated by karate.

    Now, if you could do us a favor and please point out what the "crap" is, we may be able to help you. So far your descriptions and opinions have been general and vague. Yes, there are aspects of sport TMA today which lend to showmanship, but that is not the core.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and I see STUPID looking back.
  6. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2002 1:37am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So now this nimrod is an expert on what the friggin DEAD would say if they were alive! How VERY interesting! What would JFK say today? Or Jesus?

    Van Clief fought in HONG KONG ass! I never SAID he didnt invent his own style!

    Bruce Lee was moving towards what we see in MMa today. Thats the direction he was going in. JKD follows in his footsteps and thats the way THEY are going. They are pretty much there.

    As far as understanding a technique....It doesnt take a real genius to see that many movements found in Kung Fu will not work as they intended. Go watch Boztepe/Cheung again.

    EXPLAIN TO ME WHY CHEUNG DIDNT USE ANYTHING FROM HIS ART!

    Explain why the BOTH looked like little kids flailing on a goddamned schoolyard!

    Go watch the Kung Fu s. MMA and explain THAT.

    Kung Fu has MANY Techniques and theories that are great. When someone says Kung Fu sucks you can thank YOURSELF. Its people like YOU that MAKE Kung Fu suck. You take what is taught and resist ANY change like a fukking MULE. You turn that damn art into a CULT. You take EVERYTHING from that system and blindly believe it will be a holy tool for self defense instead of using your damn empty HEAD and seeing that some things are NOT going to work as intended. It doesnt take YEARS of study to see that. DAMN what a tunnel vision bastard!



    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker

    Edited by - PeedeeShaolin on August 29 2002 01:39:32
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  7. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2002 2:28am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Though it is true that mixing the martial arts is a concept that goes back as far as the martial arts do - back to pankration in ancient Greece (which is way B.C.) - and though it is true that there are martial arts in Asia that are considered mixed (Jujitsu, Hapkido, Ninjutsu) - what you generally have are people who practice multiple martial arts seperately. For example, many samurai would take grappling, striking/kicking and swordsmanship - but all seperately.

    Most serious martial artists take more than one style during their lifetime but learning to fuse those arts that you study together into one cohesive and comprehensive personal arsenal or style is not something that you can do simply by training in those multiple styles seperately. Bruce Lee was unique in that he showed us HIS process for doing that mixing.

    He often quoted philosophers and I don't think he ever claimed that all the pieces of the puzzle were his alone. He just showed us how to study the martial arts as a whole - rather than one piece at a time. JKD was his method for doing that.

    If he didn't say it loud then only the few you mentioned would be training that way. He made that attitude something available to people from the beggining of their training. That is unique.

    As for Ron Van Clief .. He studied Jujitsu as well as Kung Fu. The guy travelled the world doing different systems. His flaw was that he never took the time to figure out how they fit together. He studied them seperately. One at a time.

    The MMA movement is about learning where a punch fits into grappling and where a takedown fits into boxing. That is what Bruce was doing. Its not what Kuang Yin was doing, sorry.




    >> One should know real emptiness as the state where there is no obscurity and the clouds of confusion have cleared away. - Miyamoto Musashi 1645
  8. Amir is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2002 4:32am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The way this discussion is going, I donít feel like contributing to it : too much personal animosity instead of listening and inteligent debate.

    As was stated earlier, and to the best of my knowledge, the concept of mixed M.A. has existed long before Bruce Lee. My knowledge of K.F. is very slim, but I do know some about the J.J.J. history.
    Check the OLD Japanese JuJitsu Ė the Koryu systems. These systems were created before 1864 (thatís the common definition of Koryu). And guess what, most systems include a very mixed curriculum, often centering around the sword and armed combat, but it also includes at least some strikes and grappling.
    Almost every serious Japanese M.A. learned more then one style. Jigoro Kano just as one example learned about a dozen of those and combined them all to form his own art Ė Judo. He wasnít the first to do so either.
    I read somewhere a single Japanese word to describe the process of learning it contained 3 stages: imitating, understanding assimilating. At first one is copying the steps, he doesnít understand the meaning behind each move, nor itís effects. Then one comes to understand by his mind, this meaning, rationalizing and thinking about those, this understanding may come through explanations (the way we western civilization people so admire) or experience (the way many Oriental civilization people prefer). Having understood the meaning, one must assimilate the teaching to his own core, combine it with his body and other systems he has learnt. The latter process result is a personalized technique, or in fact Ė system. At the end of the road, each person comes out with his own private M.A.
    It is true, Bruce Lee has said this, but I doubt he claimed to be the first to say it. His fame may have sent the message further and made more people aware of this truth, but it was always there. And many knew about it.
    This road doesnít say if one should learn a single M.A. or multiple systems, it is the personís choice. The road will remain the same in both cases.


    Amir
  9. SifuAbel is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2002 4:39am

    Join us... or die
     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PeePee ,

    You sure do make me laugh. If you would stop whining like a baby maybe you wouldn't come off as such a choad.
    Jesus would say peedee is going to hell. LOL!
    Yours isn't an arguement either way, its a barage of insluts aimed at a flame war. Nothing derived from fact at all. You don't know me , what I do, what my experience is, nothing. Yet singlehandedly you identified me as the root of all evil in kung fu. That i don't accept change, even though you don't have a clue as to how I fight. You never asked. Or even if things that you think are exclusive to you might actually exist in kung fu.
    You assume too much.

    The videos are simple , they sucked. Most of the TCMA world laughed at this fiasco. I could get a couple of videos of amateur grapple guys getting beaten to a pulp. It wouldn't prove anything.





    Edited by - kungfudoeswork on August 29 2002 04:43:21
    I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and I see STUPID looking back.
  10. SifuAbel is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2002 4:54am

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     Style: LongFist CMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very good points, amir.

    9,

    "That is what Bruce was doing. Its not what Kuang Yin was doing, sorry."
    How do you know? Have you studied the styles that stemmed from this guy who lived a thousand years ago?
    This is one of the things that tickles my attention. Qualify and quantify this statement. How do you know? How do you know that this isn't exactly what the guy was doing?


    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?
    I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and I see STUPID looking back.
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