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  1. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2003 4:47pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When someone lies about his credential or the history of the arts he teach, it does come under the category of bullshido.

    So to get the history "right* is important part of this forum, IMO.
  2. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2003 4:49pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bolverk,
    I don't care how much respect he was accorded. It sounds ridiculous, to me. Try living there for awhile and you'll tire of the gerontocracy as well.

    Anyway, how does the Muyedobongtongji indicate that TKD was attempting to get back to a style similar to Taekkyon?

    Both of those sites offer accounts that don't conflict at all with what I have said or offered. So I'm not sure what the source of disagreement is.

    Is it over proportions of pedigree? Who cares? Did TKD people seek to reconnect TKD to Taekkyon? Sure. Uncontroversial. Did they? Is that grounds for claiming 2,000 year old irgins for TKD? Have you ever seen real Taekkyon? What were the motives behind recasting the art as national? What does TKD more closely resemble?

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  3. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/19/2003 4:50pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Narrow-minded? You're being gullible.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2003 5:25pm

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    History, like any area of study, has various definitions. In academia history is written stuff. If it wasn't written down they call it oral history and there are various ways to write it down. Like the bible, take the 4 accounts, throw out the bullshitter, compare common stuff in the other three, and voila! You get stories of a guy named Jesus that went around turning the other cheek and being all cool and what you loose is the miracles. That type of analysis is designed to figure out what the legends were actually about, whether they be Hawaiian, Hopi, or Christian.

    Once this is written down it is a document of historical work, so to speak. Herodotus wrote history. The three-day chant of the Hopi would come under folklore or cultural anthropology.

    I donít want to nit pick, but like sociology and psychology, popular culture and what goes in journals are a whole different world.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. Mr. Nice Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2003 3:02am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel,
    It is interesting that Diogenes' dates, 412(?)-323 B.C., correspond to the latest estimates for the compilation of the Tao Te Ching in China.

    patfromlogan,
    The Bible is a good example of what someone who wants to have a cut and dried history of a long, complex process is up against. Getting scholars ('outside' observers) to agree with each other about the chronology of the Bible's authors and redactors, much less getting them and the religionists ('inside' observers) to agree, is probably almost as difficult as trying to get people to agree on a universally accepted history of martial styles. Even if we can't get many documents saying so-and-so taught such-and-such an art in this city at that time for much of Oriental martial history, we can apply broader cultural evidence to the study, and at least come to some conclusions from technique and circumstance and even oral tradition (insofar as it fits the broader framework) about the origins and formulation of some of the arts still practiced today, much like proponents of the "Documentary Hypothesis" do with the Bible.

    You can look to archeological and documentary evidence of the ebb and flow of armies and dynasties across Asia, the successive evolution from warfare using chariots to that of stirrup mounted cavalry, from bronze weapons to iron, from native to barbarian regimes, etc. Add to that the more or less documented spread of philosophical schools, the Confucians, Taoists, Moists, Legalists, Buddhists and their synthesizers such as the later Neo-Confucians (a Sung dynasty synthesis effected under the threat of imminent invasion by the Mongols) and you can start to get some ideas as to the cultural necessities for the various styles of martial arts, the where and why, and a rough idea of the when.

    The ancients weren't concerned with modern academic departmental distinctions, to be sure, they just wanted to survive another season, or even another day at the worst case. The older arts can be seen though as survivals of the folklore, the province of modern anthropologists, of much earlier times in East Asian culture.

    Regards,
    N.G.
  6. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2003 12:57pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyway, how does the Muyedobongtongji indicate that TKD was attempting to get back to a style similar to Taekkyon?
    It does not indicate anything about how Taekwondo was attempting to get back to the style. It shows that they had detailed illustrations of the art to model Taekwondo's modern kicks on. In fact it is called the most detailed surviving document of Japanese accient sword arts also, since it documented Korean Martial Arts.

    To Quote, "Muyedobotongjj contains detailed drawings and explanations of the movements of each school of Japanese swordsmanship and includes a chapter on Japanese sword fighting, making it a truly rare document the likes of which cannot be found even in Japan. There are illustrations of all the movements of both waegeom and waegeomgyojeon. Waegeom is different from the traditional sword techniques of geomdo, or kendo in Japanese, which was forcibly transplanted to Korea during Japanese colonial rule (1910-1945)."

    Since this is the case, one can only conclude that Taekkyon, or Taekgyeon, was also well illustrated. And there fore, gave them the ability to model modern Taekwondo kicks after it.

    Both of those sites offer accounts that don't conflict at all with what I have said or offered. So I'm not sure what the source of disagreement is.
    The only dissagreement I can see that we have is if Taekwondo has roots in Taekkyon. I acknowledge that Taekwondo was the child of Karate, and that Taekwondo is only 48 years old.

    Is it over proportions of pedigree? Who cares? Did TKD people seek to reconnect TKD to Taekkyon? Sure. Uncontroversial. Did they? Is that grounds for claiming 2,000 year old irgins for TKD? Have you ever seen real Taekkyon? What were the motives behind recasting the art as national? What does TKD more closely resemble?
    Perhaps it is over proportions of pedigree. A mut is a mut, right?

    We agree that there was an attempt to reconnect to Taekkyon, perhaps we disagree on their success. And there was certainly plenty of controversy in the process, including all of the failed attempts before there was success.

    I would say that it is wrong to say that Taekwondo is 2000 years old. But it does have roots to the 2000 years of traditional values and philosophy or Korean Martial Arts culture. And the modern kicking techniques of the art are modeled on Taekkyon. But Taekwondo is officially only 48 years old, and was influenced by both Chinese and Japanese arts.

    The motives behind trying to reconnect with a past Korean Martial Art are simple. To discard the influence of the conquerors and bring things in line with a Korean philosophy. I think the motives were probably that simple, to Koreanize their art.

    Currently, Taekwondo has some resemblance to Karate in that it is more linear then Taekkyon. However, Taekwondo has developed into it's own unique art, with its own unique philosophy. That is what matters the most. Otherwise one should just take Karate.

    Sincerely,

    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Edited by - Bolverk on June 20 2003 12:59:55
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  7. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2003 1:20pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bolverk,
    We should probably continue this on the TKD thread. And check out what I have to say about TKD and TAekkyon on that thread.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  8. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2003 1:27pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "In fact, there is a surviving historical document, the Muyedobotongji, that supports a view that Taekwondo, though influenced by other arts, was also attempting to get back to a style similar to Taek Kyon.'

    I have this book that is in question. This book depicts very basic forms of the 18 weapons used in the Korean military. There is only one set of empty hand tecniques and NONE of it ressembles any TKD I have seen before.

    "Since this is the case, one can only conclude that Taekkyon, or Taekgyeon, was also well illustrated. And there fore, gave them the ability to model modern Taekwondo kicks after it."

    You keep having this thing in your mind that Taekkyon was a martial art. It was not a martial art. The Korean militar did not train in Taekkyon. It was a G-A-M-E. Only today do people consider it a martial art.

    "Taekwondo has developed into it's own unique art, with its own unique philosophy"

    This is the one thing I agree with. TKD did find its on identity, which is why I can't understand why it needs to BS about its roots.



    Jeremy M. Talbott
    http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
    http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  9. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2003 1:33pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Miguk,
    Like most fight sports, a style developed around what was successful in the venue. Lke San Shou, or even NHB fighting today.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  10. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2003 2:20pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel,

    Do you think you would be able to post any type of info or history on Taekkyon. I would be interested in seeing some.

    Jeremy M. Talbott
    http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
    http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
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