228157 Bullies, 4574 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 39
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    9,620

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 10:26am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all, in discussions of the geneology of the martial arts, it is important to avoid falling into the trap of searching for pure national origins that are simply the opposite of the ones that have prevailed before. For whatever reason, martial arts have always engendered this sort of bizarre nationalism. Few people argue about the origins of astronomy, or mathematics. In these cases, we clearly recognize that the dissemination of ideas crosses many boundaries, and that individuals are better identified as the engine of new discovery or of rediscovery.

    Second, cynicism and alethic relativism in discussions of history is really just a dodge. Narratives of history are certainly questionable, they involve interpretation, no matter how concrete the facts upon which they are based. But there is nonetheless much that is verifiable and significant. Remember to avoid the temptation of thinking that it is the interpretive parts of history that are interesting. When I reach that point, I always prefer to leave things to question. In any case, facts matter, and should not be ignored. Interpretations are the field of appropriate debate.

    I think this would be a good thread where we can discuss the more academic aspects of history and research, and hold a meta-debate (debate about the debate) on history.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

    Edited by - The Wastrel on June 19 2003 15:53:00
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  2. Miguksaram is offline
    Miguksaram's Avatar

    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    3,523

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 12:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice threaed Wrastrel.

    Jeremy M. Talbott
    http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
    http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
  3. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Chicken Town
    Posts
    910

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 12:26pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People do not need to argue about the origin of astronomy or mathmatics, the history is very well documented.

    When you talk about Martial Arts, it is a completely different story. Much of the history was destroyed in many instances, left to be handed down only by word of mouth.

    Sincerely,

    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  4. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    9,620

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 12:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bolverk,
    Word of mouth is not history. Making uncontroversial conclusions from verifiable data is. If data were destroyed then we acknowledge that we can know nothing, we do not accept the explanations of people who have obvious and vested interests in their personal accounts, which may also seem to run counter to verifiable data.

    You didn't get my point about astronomy or mathematics, which is basically that these things are idea strains. It is ridiculous to claim that Japan invented Karate. Or that England invented Boxing. Martial arts evolve partially along with interaction with the enemy, they cannot be organic to themselves. And there is no reason to worry about whether they are.

    Anyone attempting to establish some sort of bizarre national pedigree is to be viewed with great suspicion.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

    Edited by - The Wastrel on June 18 2003 12:47:35
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  5. Mr. Nice Guy is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    108

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 2:49pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The following are several postings from a series that started on the TKD history thread that will probably be more appreciated here, at least by the TKD guys!



    patfromlogan
    Light-Heavyweight


    USA
    895 Posts
    136 Gold
    900 Rep. Points Posted - June 17 2003 : 23:43:38
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well as a student of history, truth matters a lot to me. Revisionist bullshit stinks, and fairy tales, "romanticism," and propaganda lead to idiotic beliefs, like that we have evidence of weapons of mass destruction (despite the CIA officials claiming that they had no evidence of the wmd), or that the US supports democracy (Vietnam, Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile not withstanding, somehow bullshit seems to rule the popular culture), or that there are “master races” upon the Earth, and the “mud” races are to be ruled by them. But as my hero Robert Nesta Marley sang, "If you knew your history, then you wouldn't have to ask where I am coming from," and "if you don't know your history you are like a tree without roots."

    "Masutatsu Oyama Sensei (Choi Yong-i) was Korean, Grand Master Lee (Yi) Won-Kuk trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi Sensei, and General Choi Hong Hi, founder of ITF, was a first Dan in Japanese Karate." If historical methodology supports this, which it seems to clearly do, then to think otherwise is to live is a fantasy world. That is the individual’s business, but I pity those who can't face reality. I’m sure the Nazi bullshit legends and myths gave people lots of warm fuzzy feelings and was to partake in was quite enjoyable. Perhaps it takes courage to face reality, but isn’t courage very important in martial arts?


    "Only IDIOTS think kata is useless because they don't know what they are talking about!!!" 5/6/03 Asia

    Mr. Nice Guy
    Featherweight


    USA
    34 Posts
    100 Gold
    39 Rep. Points Posted - June 18 2003 : 09:16:52
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't remember who said it now (Mr. Guy is getting old, time for his medicine...), but the best observation I've ever heard on the subject of history went something like this:

    "History? In the end, history is lies about crimes."

    There you have it.



    Grim, hard, cold words, heartless and miserable. The night was railing against the morning of which it was bereaved, and the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered.

    Edited by - Mr. Nice Guy on June 18 2003 14:57:36
  6. Mr. Nice Guy is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    108

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 2:51pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    patfromlogan
    Light-Heavyweight


    USA
    895 Posts
    136 Gold
    900 Rep. Points Posted - June 18 2003 : 09:44:41
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Nice Guy, that's the kind of negative thinking I saw in college when a nobrain asked the prof "why do we have to learn about dead politicians?" In my opinion, living a lie is the crime, but as nonthinking thick necked fools and jerks like to say; 'opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.'

    "Only IDIOTS think kata is useless because they don't know what they are talking about!!!" 5/6/03 Asia


    Edited by - Mr. Nice Guy on June 18 2003 14:55:29
  7. Mr. Nice Guy is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    North America
    Posts
    108

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 2:53pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Patfromlogan,

    I was just making an (admittedly cynical) joke, amplifying on another maxim that historians are fond of: "The victors write the history." I'm a bit of an historian myself, which is why I'm delighted to be having a go at my fellow historians.

    Since politicians from time immemorial have based their legitimacy on a superior ability to commit murder, the "lies about crimes" statement can be seen as pretty accurate, humor notwithstanding.

    For example, look up the history of history writing on the Wars of the Roses sometime. The Plantagenets lost and the Tudors won, so the Tudors by right of conquest wrote the histories of the those wars that have been read for the last 500 years. Richard III Plantagenet, despite much contemporary evidence from other sources as to the beneficial effects of his public policy for the common people, sources previous to and independent of the Tudors, has been painted in the public mind as the foullest of villains ever since. Historians all have personal motives themselves, either unconscious or blatantly mercenary ones (Kungfoolss comes to mind) that interfere at least a little with their objectivity, so we should be suspect of any historian or history that isn't independently verified by multiple sources.

    Wastrel started a thread today about just this subject, a debate on the different historical methods people use, perhaps an administrator would be kind enough to move us there.

    Regards,
    Mr. N.G.


    Grim, hard, cold words, heartless and miserable. The night was railing against the morning of which it was bereaved, and the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered.





    The Wastrel
    Heavyweight


    USA
    3699 Posts
    240 Gold
    3704 Rep. Points Posted - June 18 2003 : 14:22:50
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Just copy and paste your posts and then delete it from this thread. I will delete this myself in two days...

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."

    Edited by - Mr. Nice Guy on June 18 2003 14:56:20
  8. Bolverk is offline

    Ex-ATA and Proud of it.

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Chicken Town
    Posts
    910

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 3:01pm


     Style: Jeet Kune Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bolverk,
    Word of mouth is not history. Making uncontroversial conclusions from verifiable data is. If data were destroyed then we acknowledge that we can know nothing, we do not accept the explanations of people who have obvious and vested interests in their personal accounts, which may also seem to run counter to verifiable data.
    I must disagree with your assessment of what history is. History is not always verifiable, but that does not mean it does not exist. History is like the truth, it has three sides, your version, my version, and what really happened. Your version may not square with mine, but that does not mean either version will square with what really happened.

    Sincerely,

    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.
    Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
    Willing is not enough, we must do.

    Never approach a Bull from the front, a Horse from the rear, or a Fool from any direction!

    He who dares not offend cannot be honest. -- Thomas Payne
  9. Vapour is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    552

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 3:16pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, there is nothing wrong with saying that Karate is Okinawan arts derived from Kung Fu. There are number of historical records showing that quite few founder of Karate travelled to China and learned the martial arts over there.

    Now as far as civilization goes in the East, there are no question that Chinese originated much of everthing. However, that doesn't mean nothing can originate from Japan or Korea.

    For example, pasta originated from China(noodle/men in Chinese). Then it's spread around the world through the silk road. However, that doesn't mean pasta is not uniquely Italian. In china it is just noodle in soup. In italy, it's far more than that. Plus, there are no controversy in saying that italian originated a variation of pasta, pizza.

    Now, my point is that certain thing such as who or which country originated what can be established given enough historical evidences. On the other hand, whether original is superior to the other is totally different matter. I mentioned in other thread but in Confusius culture, it' is generally assumed that older/original one is better/superior. This "I taught you so I'm better than you" is a sport among Chinese/Korean/Japanese.

    There are valid point in investigating history/origin of martial arts. But the exercise become pointless when it's is used to prove something other than mere facts.
  10. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    9,620

    Posted On:
    6/18/2003 3:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bolverk,
    If you disagree that making uncontroversial conclusions from verifiable date is good history, then what is? Pure storytelling?

    I think you maintain the relativist position because it squares with your current agenda. I mean, aren't you conservative?

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
Page 1 of 4 1 234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.