Ninjutsu or Bu taijutsu as i like to call it

**kusa** · Posted On: 7/15/2003 5:29pm

a break can be a submission, most things like wrist locks, standing arm bars etc are mainly done oppotunisticly, if its there snap, if not carry on hittin/grabbin/off balencin slashin/stabbin. most floor submissions, use postioning to tie up an opponants body then they work outwards to the limb, we do this but when standing there are less ways to lock down the oppoants/victims body, mainly hitting / seizing and off balencing plus as muscle strength as youve got, the important thing is to not force techniques on when there not workin do sumat else, flow and survive. bjj is great but with the rise of a lot of sport competators who dont realise that the game plan you use in a match is different then the one you use in ufc/a bar/nightclub/ when gettin mugged etc,
plus i didnt have to learn to apply my art, my first instructor was a head bouncer and he was the real deal, you just have to train hard and get into the mind set and challenge yourself daily, a punch is a punch after all, i think a lot of people here put others down to feel better about there own trainin, not by any means many but end of day if your gonna post uniformed comments then expect not only a well informed discourse but olso to get OWNED

**kusa** · Posted On: 7/15/2003 5:33pm

plus if you look on www.e-budo.com in the ninpo section on the 19th there will be a report of a NINJA dojo takin on a jkd group, wanna make a bet Jkdchick, jkd wins i be your sex slave, takamatsuden wins you be my sex slave, fair???

**Dochter** · Posted On: 7/15/2003 5:39pm

Uhh...I'll assume that that wasn't directed towards me, as I tend to agree with you (as my posts indicate). The only person who was disagreed with pretty strongly was the individual who said bjj techniques won't work in "combat" situations but breaking someone's jaw will. The rest of us have agreed that it at least sounds like you guys have good instructors and an open mindset.

Another point pretty much everyone here agrees with is that you have to train, at least a fair bit of the time with resisting opponents, otherwise you aren't very likely to be able to deal with the permutations that occur when trying to do things for "real".

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My single chopstick is bad at serving soup, cutting steaks and basting roasts and chickens. Besides that it owns.

**kusa** · Posted On: 7/15/2003 6:01pm

sorry not aimed at you docher, just generall random thorts, really should take my pills soon! i think the takamatsuden arts are fantastic but the fuckin ninja nut riders are soooooo anoyin thats theres no creadability to the art(s) in mainstream culture. but hey **** em,

**Kuroneko** · Posted On: 7/15/2003 6:09pm

Here's a question for all of you ninjas. [...] What I want to know, is why did you pick the system in the first place? You could have chosen to train in something that would have worked to begin with, and yet you picked an old art that needs to be adapted and fitted for modern reality.

I remain, Hapko3

Actually, I didn't try to become a ninja. I still don't call myself a ninja, cuz that connotes AK's department...
A friend of mine who had been training for a few years got me into it. I just asked, is it effective? and he said, yes, so I took his word.
I considered myself 'dangerous' after about a year, but I realize now (6 years later) that I wasn't. I'd consider myself 'dangerous' again, but I'd probably laugh about it in a few years.
I'm not sure if we're doing much adapting to modern reality. A fight's a fight...

So to answer your question, I picked it cuz of my friend, and cuz I didn't want to train in an art that's just about kicking and punching (i.e. karate or especially tkd).

**Spunky** · Posted On: 7/16/2003 11:50am

Good grief Dochter you are blowing up that comment of mine tremendously, I'm sorry you took such personal offense to it apparently. The point was illustrated much more clearly by Sensei Dow, who is far more qualified on the topic than I am.

David, you were a student of Kevin Schneider and Larry Turner? My teachers are presently under them, I've only met them through seminars. I was just looking at the Anko site for recommendation to someone moving to the LA area.

Hopefully I'm not too far off course with my ramblings here...

**Dochter** · Posted On: 7/16/2003 12:11pm

No personal offence was taken at all. You need to look at what you're doing and ask yourself if no one (teaching you) has actually done the move in a "combat" situation whether or not you actually can trust that. Submissions are alsso susbstansevly the same things as the "breaks" you are talking about and nhb fights and the training they go through for them is about the most realistic fight training you're going to find. As a note, I neither train for nor compete in nhb so don't take this as a fan rant.

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My single chopstick is bad at serving soup, cutting steaks and basting roasts and chickens. Besides that it owns.

**Spunky** · Posted On: 7/16/2003 12:59pm

Well, glad on the first point :)

Of course most "submissions" would be breaks with more pressure on, I haven't seen a lock in an NHB tournie we don't practice, so it would be silly to say it works for us and not in BJJ. I understand your baffled reaction to the idea, because it is ludicrous... but I don't think I ever stated otherwise, nor did I say that BJJ woulis unapplicable in a combat situation, so apologies for the confusion on that. Honestly if that's the only thing you took issue with after all my blathering, that's not bad :)

Shinbushi already explained something about the quick breaks we train for that, from my limited understanding, could be a possible explanation for the admittedly low amount of groundwork we do (although we spend some intensive time on it).

I have experienced teachers. The most seasoned(from what I know) has been an active bodyguard, head of security for a couple of nightclubs, and continues working in the personal protection industry. He has a gunshot wound scar, has put several people in the hospital, and has been in more fights than he cares to remember. He had applied for an NHB competition at one point, and after promptly snapping the leg of his first trial opponent in the opening seconds was told his style was "too violent." I trust his judgement on a lot of things. Of course, he could be talking out of his ass because I wasn't there, but my instincts are pretty good for that.

For Hapk03, I'll admit my introduction to the organization was originally through Hayes' books, but I was MAYBE in middle school then. I rather spontaneously decided to finally train in something, and just set out to find a combative style that covered all aspects of martial arts. I found my unlisted dojo as a happy accident, and it is by far the most comprehensive school in my area. Since then, I have benifited greatly from my training, emotionally and mentally as much as anything. The philosophies and spirit of the organization are very compatible with myself. As far as it being an "old" art, Soke wants us to learn principles and formlessness, not specific techniques tied down to a particular time period. This is made very clear, and I have yet to imagine a scenerio where it suffers some weakness.

Edited by - spunky on July 16 2003 13:06:46

**kusari** · Posted On: 7/18/2003 3:43pm

Hapko3 quote :
"Here's a question for all of you ninjas. From what you've been saying, it sounds like your training is actually quite good, at least from what I, in my limited experience, can tell. I appreciate and respect your effort to make the system work in the context of actual fighting. What I want to know, is why did you pick the system in the first place? You could have chosen to train in something that would have worked to begin with, and yet you picked an old art that needs to be adapted and fitted for modern reality.

I'm asking this seriously, by the way, I'm done busting your balls." endquote

That's the thing Hapko....if you're studying at a good Bujinkan Dojo (i.e. under someone who's not like Van Donk, that moron) you ARE studying a art, albiet and old one that's perfectly adaptable to modern combat and circumstances. Do you really think things have changed so much? No, men don't fight with sword and spear anymore..well...unless you live somewhere like Zimbabwe that is. But the unarmed techniques and principles certainly still do apply, the human body is still composed of the same muscular and skeletal system it was eons ago, and even though the ancient ways were designed for combat with armor. The human body has it's own armor-like composition, so the principles work even now.

The main principles of the Bujinkan are these, striking, skeletal locking, balance disruption and manipulation, perception broadening drills, multiple attacker drills, intention feeling drills, etc etc etc. How are these principles non-applicable to a modern environment?
If you train them, as my dojo does in a realistic, adaptable manner, they work now, as they did a hundreds of years ago. There are major differences between arts that train for combat, and arts that train for sport. Arts designed for combat (which were largely designed by those that survived) stressed efficiency, and adaptability so you could injure or kill repeatedly whilst using the smallest amount of energy. So you could survive the day and fight again the next. Arts that are designed for sport, have none of these qualities. They on a whole have entirely too much wasted motion, too much wasted energy..and the mentality of fighting, not simply surviving. A man who's thinking of nothing but living or dying will fight 10 fold in terms of fierceness than the other. It's all in the mindset, and you fight how you train. If you train for true combat, you'll fight for true combat.

And yes, I realize that there certainly are some bullshit Bujinkan Dojo, sadly enough as it is. But in the genuine, combat minded one's...there really is some fantastic training.

ryan