Posted On:6/15/2003 3:55am
I myself have practiced Weng Chun Kung Fu for about 3,5 years and in my opinion it's a complete martial system.
There is one thing i have to say WENG CHUN KUNG FU is not WT or a form of modern Wing Chun,Ving Tsun,Wing Tschung,Wing Zun etc... .
Weng Chun is considered to be the oldest of all Ving Tsun styles by the people from the Ving Tsun Museum.Some masters of Weng Chun including Grandmaster Andreas Hoffmann say that it's the oldest of all Kung Fu styles.
Perhaps ( perhaps! ) it is the oldest "organized" martial art because it began directly with Bodhidarma in the southern Shaolin Temple.
The present day Weng Chun has been developed and saved by Chi Sim the last abbot of the southern Shaolin Temple before it's destruction (that's why Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu was called Chi Sim Ving Tsun Shaolin Kung Fu some years ago.)
There is just one little exception the groundfighting was developed by Grandmaster Hoffmann and Rickson Gracie. But Weng Chun had already lots of escapes from Mount,Back,Guard,Cross-side and so on ... .
So it was just a little bit changed and Grandmaster Hoffmann also has awards for the development of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and he was the first who taught Gracie Ju Jitsu in Germany.
So i'd like to ask you : "What do you think of Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu?"
If you don't know Weng Chun look at http://www.wengchun.de and tell me you opinion , there are also many links to other martial arts sites including Weng Chun sites.
Badness will not be rewarded
Posted On:6/15/2003 4:57am
First of all, screw who developed what or what is older. Makes no difference if you want to talk about effectivness. Of course, if you are taking WC to learn about Chinese history and culture, then that is something else. For me the question is, does it work?
Second, if it is complete, why did Sifu Hoffmann even bother with teaching/training Gracie Jiu-Jitsu?
From those pictures, alot of those guys looked very out of shape. I noticed from my WT training that guys would obtain a very high rank, but had no conditioning. For me, this is a problem if you want to call yourself a martial artist.
Of course, I think that cross training BJJ is a good thing . . .
Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.
Edited by - mrmcfu on June 15 2003 05:19:09
Posted On:6/15/2003 7:08am
Style: Brazillian Kung Fu
1. Entirely agree with MFF's first point.
2. Politics suck.
3. Nice to see a style of WC that has finally realised the lack of ground capability/awareness and is shoring it up with actual training (rather than theorizing, to which many others limit themselves).
"The difference between us, and other martial arts websites you might be looking for, is that we're not going to feed you, well, bullshit about martial arts."
Posted On:6/15/2003 7:17am
Some guys looked very out of shape that's right but i think that's because Weng Chun is an internal martial art.When Grandmaster Hoffmann was young ( around 16 or 17 i think ) he met Cheng Kwong the first time.When he saw Cheng Kwong he didn't think that that old little and weak man could be one of the best Dragon Style Kung Fu Masters ( note: Dragon style is very similar to Weng Chun but it also uses some techniques with a larger curvature similar to Tai Chi Chuan ). Sifu Hoffmann was very very strong at that time ( you can see this on old pictures ) because he had practiced lots of modern martial arts in Germany.So Hoffmann wanted to test Cheng Kwong and tried to fight with him. But he couldn't even put up a fight! He was easily beaten! Strength and size doesn't matter very much in Weng Chun.Weng Chun is one of the few styles that really develop Qi.
I didn't take WC to learn about Chinese history and culture but i have to learn about that because that's a part of the tradition of Weng Chun.Because if we don't know the history of a style we don't know what we are fighting for.Or better how we have to fight. Which intensity of defense we are allowed to apply.
One very good question is why Sifu Hoffmann started to train Gracie Jiu Jitsu and taught it.If Weng Chun is a complete martial system he wouldn't need that that's right.But Sifu Hoffmann did so because he had heard of the extreme strength of the Gracie's.He had visited and fought with a lot of modern martial arts masters before and he won all fights.When Sifu Hoffmann met Rickson Gracie both fighters recognized that each other was of extreme strength and surely a world-class martial artist.So Grandmaster Hoffmann and Rickson Gracie worked together and helped each other to develop styles.Both recognized that Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu and Gracie Jiu Jitsu are in fact very similar.The difference is that Weng Chun doesn't want so many groundfighting because it's absolutely ineffective against two or more attackers.So a bit of Weng Chun groundfighting and a bit of Gracie Jiu Jitsu was changed. That's why Hoffmann has awards for helping to develop Jiu Jitsu.Today Sifu Hoffmann says that in a few situations Gracie Jiu Jitsu is even equal to Weng Chun.
I can't obtain a high rank when im not trained very good Sifu Hoffmann tests every 4-5 months.My fourth test was to graduate for blue belt and it was very difficult.I think for example a black belt in some modern martial arts is much easier to get.Weng Chun is a very old style (1400years ore more) so there are very much things incorporated in that style. So i have to learn very much for the tests and it's not easy to pass them.
Thanks for your replay MrMcFu.
Posted On:6/15/2003 9:52am
While I don't doubt you have worked very hard, it sounds like you might have also swallowed the myth of a martial art "secret" (in this case Qi or Chi) that negates differences in stength and size.
For example, let's say I train for 10 years in WC or BJJ or whatever and I go out and fight Bob Sapp. I would lose very quickly and probably be severely injured or killed, simply because of the size difference.
THERE IS NO MAGIC FORMULA
Internal martial arts and fitness are NOT mutually exclusion. Man kann beides gleichzeitig haben!
Also, while I have not trained directly under a Gracie, I did train under Carlos Machado and would assume most BJJ schools put a premium on conditioning. If your Sifu or those other students did as well, they would probably look a little less round. I think if he took that training truly to heart, he would also have better conditioning for his students as well.
I am not trying to trash your style, just to get you to challenge your assumptions. It seems to me that your instructor wants to be considered legitimate which is understandable, but at the same time does it through associating his name with the Gracies. I believe this would be a form of what could be called "nutriding" on bullshido, but keep in mind this is just my first impression.
If you have any evidence of a WC stylist using WC defeating a BJJer using BJJ, please post it! I have yet to see anything of the sort and would welcome it. Every NHB competition with a WC/WT/VT stylist I have seen ends with the WT guy tapping. The "My style is too deadly for the ring" is not an excuse.
Also, please post some evidence of WC being used to develop GJJ. Most people in this board would be very intrested in that.
Sifu Emin - Did you see that?
Me - (gasping) No, but I can't breathe yet.
Edited by - mrmcfu on June 15 2003 09:57:09
Posted On:6/15/2003 10:21am
I'm always skeptical of grandmasters with western names... they're sooo humble...
ToS, right now you're overwhelmed by the magnificence of your art. It'll take a few more years for you to figure out what's really good and what's bad about it. Nothing is perfect...
How much do you spar? Does your GM participate?
Posted On:6/15/2003 3:36pm
I spar at least once every week and GM Hoffmann participates.
GM Hoffmann invites martial artist from other styles and i have never seen him loosing a fight it's said that he never lost a fight since he is Weng Chun Grandmaster (1995). I have not seen him fighting people with the size of Bob Sapp ( 205cm 171kg ) but i have seen him fighting a huge guy who also practiced Weng Chun and some external martial arts ( ca. 200cm 145kg)and he EASILY won.I estimate Grandmaster Hoffmann is around 90kg 177cm.
Qi exists but only very few people know that.
Qi is not a magic energy. It comes from a musculature a normal martial artist can't use !!! It's a special kind of rotating musculature. The existence of Qi has been proven in the Weng Chun academy Dai Duk Lan which was destroyed in 1991. If you want i can tell you more about that. The existence of Qi was also proven at lots of chinese universities. But it's NOT A MAGIC POWER.Believe my Qi exists and there is nobody in the whole world who doesn't possess Qi.
I have seen Grandmaster Hoffmann fighting BJJ stylists with Weng Chun
i don't have a video clip because i'm not allowed to record the fights.But if you come from Germany you could contact Sifu Hoffmann.
In spätestens 3 wochen ist er in Bamberg und du kannst ihn alles fragen was du willst.Er unterrichtet in Bamberg.
There is one thing where i'm very sure.If you would train very very hard for 10 years you could fight Bob Sapp!!! I'm absolutely sure you could do it!!! Absolutely!!! You would WIN EASILY!!!
Es gibt ein Buch von GM Hoffmann " Weng Chun- Die weiche Macht von
I personally can't show you evidence of Weng Chun incorporated in Gracie Jiu Jitsu. But i have seen the awards for develoipment of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and Sifu Hoffmann told me a lot about his work with Rickson Gracie.Perhaps on GM Hoffmann's website there are some photos of the awards.Perhaps you can search in the Internet under "Andreas Hoffmann Rickson Gracie" perhaps you fnd something.
Man kann beides gleichzeitig haben --- hmm stimmt.
Weng Chun is a martial art where size strength and weight don't matter very much.
Wir können nicht sagen das Größe,Kraft und Gewicht unwichtig sind aber es bedeutet für Weng Chun Meister fast nichts.So das Weng Chun von allen Menschen unabhängig von Alter,Größe,Kraft und Geschlecht ausgeübt werden kann.
And there is one thing where i'm very sure too. Sifu Hoffmann could beat Bob Sapp. I don't know if i could fight him but i wouldn't fear him.I( 66kg 179cm ) don't fear an opponent even if he is 270cm 300kg but i RESPECT EVERY OPPONENT.
I don't think Weng Chun is the ultimate martial art but some Weng Chun Grandmasters have powers some usual martial artist wouldn't even dream of.I don't consider Weng Chun to be the perfect martial art but i consider Weng Chun to be the best martial art in the whole world today.
Perhaps i might sound like **** to you.When i first heard of Weng Chun i didn't believe my ears.But when i saw Grandmaster Hoffmann fighting i didn't believe my eyes.He doesn't use some techniques which look difficult he just wins and you don't know how.I have experienced that very often when i tried to fight with Grandmaster Hoffmann.I was easily beaten and i didn't even know how!!!
I think Grandmaster Hoffmann should participate in Mixed Martial Arts tournaments and i think he could win everything with ease.
Aber er sagt es wäre ethisch nicht nachvollziehbar.
I admit there are some things i can't explain but i swear upon my honor as a martial artist if you really try to fight Hoffmann and see him fighting very big guys you will believe what i said.
so my dear martial brothers and sisters if some of you want to learn Weng Chun Shaolin Kung Fu ask Grandmaster Hoffmann.
Posted On:6/15/2003 4:12pm
Wing Chun is good, but by all mean not the only way. I've seen many Wing Chun people lose to other styles. Stop thinking about all this martial fantasy, and focus on science. Nothing magical about the Wing Chun punch if you really take a look at it then you'll see that there is an extra joint movement there, nothing magical. You people are watching to much Dragonball Z
Posted On:6/15/2003 4:50pm
Style: Judo and BJJ
I think everyone should Weng Chun tonight.
And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
Taking a break
Posted On:6/15/2003 5:35pm
I'll give you fair warning. Wastrel is going to see your section about your definaition of qi and will tear you apart if you can't back it up. Get rehearsing your answers.
Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
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