Posted On:6/07/2003 8:20am
damnit Fighty edit your damned post you nut...
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
"in final closing look yourselves in the mirror and you might see yourself." Posted by big buck - June 05 2003
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Posted On:6/07/2003 8:27am
from a Wing Chun guy's perspective....
chain punching-seems fine, just like WC (geeee!!)
but i don't use chain punching much
wimpy punch/demonstrating on 100 lb bag-no way that bag is 100lbs, just the way it shakes tells me otherwise (i bend my 100lb bag, not make it flop around like a 30 or whatever lb bag)
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
"in final closing look yourselves in the mirror and you might see yourself." Posted by big buck - June 05 2003
Posted On:6/07/2003 10:25am
Applying Structure When Hitting
by Pat Strong
You write: "My tools may be fast, but to a certain degree they feel "light." Even when I engage my structure at the last moment, it still feels like I am throwing a snake bite. Maybe this is because my structure is not what it should be."
A snake bite is fine, but at contact the snake should be an iron rod backed by the structure of your body and it's accumulated released forces. Deep into impact, the iron must turn back to a snake as to eliminate rebound. This is called, "The Pole Principle." This principle is extremely important!
Here is why. Let's take the straight blast. Too often I have seen jkd'rs blast pepper their blows and with fair speed, yet none of the punches have either penetrating or stopping power. If your lead punch doesn't have real power neither will your second punch because it will not have the correct distance to be optimally effective. Now will the third punch.
It is important that the first punch stop the enemy cold in his tracks and even blast him backward. A blow like this penetrates through the body attacking organs and nervous system. Now you will have the distance to hit with full power on the second blow, and then the third. If a really big man rushes you and you hit him and he just smothers your power and keeps coming, you've missed your chance for follow up.
So then, how to strike with Pole power. Go to the heavy bag and hit it with a jab. Watch what happens to the bag. No doubt you made a smack, but without moving the bag much. Now hit it with a straight or cross, ala boxing. What did the bag do this time. Of course, your power was greater and the bag moved more. But what else happened. Hit it again and listen to the smack. Notice that your punch has loud impact power, but I bet it has little penetration. I bet the bag did not travel too far. With a poled punch (not a push) there will be no smack, rather a deep thud. The bag will be blown away. If you take this punch to a Bob Dummy, you will knock it completely over on its back with a THUD! You will notice that the punch is deep and powerful. You will also notice that you did not have to try hard to deliver the power. This is because the power is delivered by the body structure.
I would say that the first thing you must do is to really get the feel of structural power. Begin by going to a wall and placing both hands against the wall about shoulder width apart, while backing up about four feet or so. Now lift your right foot and extend it out toward the wall. As you do this drop your hip and turn it upward. You will feel a giant increase in pressure on your hands. Now do the same thing, but holding the wall with just one hand. The pressure will be so great you can hardly hold it. This is the rudimentary hip power, at its most basic level. Once you have this idea, have your training partner hold up his arms and cross them out in front of his chest like a Cossack dancer. Tell him to resist you with all his strength, while you place your hands on his arms. Like with the wall, back up and lift your right leg and extend it out toward him. If he is too close simply move the leg out to the side of him giving yourself more room. You will feel the bow action of your hip load like a bow and arrow. The potential energy will mount quickly and then release, hurling your partner backward on his heels. You will have done all of this will nearly no effort. This is the hip power. Once you have this go back to the bag. Apply that same hip power with your lead punch. To start, don't even punch. Just hold your arm straight out in front of you fist closed. Use your hip for the power power and watch what happens to the bag now. It will take some practice. Once you have this, you can start developing it into your lead punch with its hip rotation. You'll need to play with it a bit. Soon you will use the power not only to hit powerfully, but fast and accurately. It will speed up your entry. It will crush obstructions. It will become an iron snake.
However, keep in mind that these are just drills to develop the structural power.
&lt;The following is another post from further down the thread&gt;
You write: "On the structure hitting practices. As you make impact with your lead punch - from relaxed to heavy fist feel as possible on impact to end of follow through and then snaps out relaxed again. Is this kind of correct and the technique should be as fast going in and follow through as well as coming back out again i.e. from start to finish?"
For the moment let's think in terms of just two straight line hitting methods. First, you hit with recoil. Second, you don't recoil. Instead, you with a poled effect with deeper penetration.
Some perform the retraction hit with the short arc of the fist turning like that of a boxer or karateka. In JKD the short arc can snap horizontally like a whip coming back around in order to accelerate the final movement.
In wing chun, jun fan, and jeet kune do you might prefer the wrist abduction, either snapping or poled. Snapping can be powerful, indeed, but not as powerful as the poled punch where the fist does not snap back.
When retracting be sure and snap back twice as fast as the entry. Keep in mind that retraction, no matter how fast, creates a gap that a good man might take advantage of if you don't succeed in really disrupting him in some form.
On the pole punch, there will be no gap. The difference between snapping back and poling is in the effect. Snapping a punch back causes deformity at the surface of the target. As the fist snaps back the surface will reform, thus adding another possible level of damage. But on the poled punch, the penetration is deep, deep, deep. It is as if I were holding a 2x4 tightly under my arm and I lunged into you, hitting you deep in the chest, for example. The poled effect would sink deep into your cavity effecting your lung and possibly the heart. It would go straight through your spine. It would be deeply hurtful.
Once more, the poled effect is further deepened by the abduction of the wrist, whereas the middle knuckles make first contact, followed by the driving small knuckle.
Just how the body structure delivers either of these strikes is in the method being used. It can be done with the wing chun hip rotation as performed by Bruce, with the difference being that Bruce would go to the risky maximum degree of rotation for added reach and power, as compared to wing chun. Or, the punch can be done with the bow action of the hip which is even more powerful. Finally, it can be done with a combination of the two, but this takes a lot of practice. And there is another way, in which falling step power is used. It can be done with short power, either liner or rotational.
In any case, the secret to the Bruce Lee's punching is to be found in the final movement, just inches before and then during penetration of impact where the speed is accelerated to increase power. For optimal effect the structure must be sealed for connection while in proper alignment. Add to this the right energies and mechanical advantages. And then you have Bruce's punch. You know, the punch that is only a punch. LOL
You write: "Also when you feet land with falling step - does same principle apply - relaxed - heavy feel as possible slam feet/heel down into floor with final hip/heel rotation on impact/follow through? Do both feet hit the floor together etc?"
On the surface, falling step sounds pretty simple. Some even think of it as a mere transfer of weight synchronized just a fraction before the strike. In part, this is true. I say, "in part," because Bruce had a few extra details to this one. One of them was how to not allow your striking impact to be absorbed by your own body. The way you drop the front foot has a direct effect on this. For instance, if you allow the knee to bend, the bent knee will absorb impact that should have been directed into the target.
Posted On:6/07/2003 10:35am
If we take Bruce's 1st era we will see that he had learned from wing chun, tai chi and also from an old master who taught a number of gung fu
systems, including at least one Northern system. So, just what skills did Bruce have during this time?
Let's see. He had a thorough thoretical and working knowledge of two basic kinds of structures. The first kind that didn't break at the hip, which offered powerful mechanical advantages for jamming and trapping. The second kind did break at the hip for off-fighting. Certainly, he a trunk full of highly trained and carefully honned tools. Tools so strong that they were virtually indomitable against bigger and stronger men. So much so that he would often demonstrate what appeared to be incredible feats of strength and skill, but were merely an understanding of proper
mechanics and strucure.
He had sensitiviy training from chi sao and a lot of sparring experience as well as real fight experience. He had incredible speed based off of unique principles and mechanics. He had an art that he tested in the street and on the rooftops. There were a wide variety of kicks from Southern and Northern Gung Fu, along with some weapons training.
For instance, he was a whiz with the three-section staff. He had a sense of timing learned from chi sao that taught him how to not only see, but feel an opponent's timing. And, he had much, much more.
Then he came to Seattle where he taught his students while learning from an old gung fu master who had been reknown in China. He had also picked up a few things from Preying Mantis Gung Fu, and through teaching his students and looking deeply within, he began a precess of modifying and developinng based on simplification.
His Jun Fan included a compilation of what he had learned in wing chun and in other arts. While in Seattle, there were a number of us who had done some boxing, including one who had been the US Airforce Heavy Weight boxing champion. What Bruce like about boxing was that it was
free flowing in a way that fighters didn't get stuck in their movement the way they did in karate practice and tournaments.
Bruce had been an early fan of Muhammed Ali, then Cassius Clay. At the time Clay fought Sonny Liston, Bruce had already studied the Champs timing. Shortly afterward, he developed his hand drills on beats and half beats. I believe that was in 1962, just three years before he would come up the name jkd.
Shortly after moving to Oakland he came up with the name JKD, and was excited about its theory of intercepting. He broke the news to the Seattle group one night at dinner, breaking down the theory in principle. From that moment forward, he changed the fighting stance. But then it would change again.
Years later, when Hawkins Cheung asked Bruce to define his jkd, Bruce told him it was just "pak sao and hip." Pak Sao is the method in its entirety of intercepting and cutting off. The Hip is the power and structure, born from wing chun.
In Oakland, Bruce continued with his work on timing, incorporating more boxing into his method. Still, at the core of his art was his inner wing chun structure with all its principles and mechanical advantages fully in tact, yet unknown to the casual or uninformed observer.
From Bruce's contacts in karate, he began adding variations to his kicks so that they were not so gung fu in appearance. According to Hawkins, Bruce jkd was a product of handling the karate fighter. In a letter to Hawkins from Bruce, read to me by Hawkins, Bruce talked about how big and fast the karate guys were in the US. He said he was working on ways to get in and out faster.
Bruce already and incredible start speed from his principle of non-intention. His body was fast and so were his hands, and he knew how to ghost his opponent. But now what he wanted to work on was how to make his his body even faster. He worked on footwork that came from principles of fencing, boxing and,yes, wing chun. The wing chun part was where the pressure began as in jamming and trapping. It was also where the hip power focused at the end of the punch or trap. An interesting point, just about anyone can copy Bruce's punch, but few can make it work the say Bruce did, and that is because he had still had the wing chun part.
Although bruce taught boxing movement like slipping even in the earier days, he went on to expand it more like a boxer, but with one huge exception. Unlike the boxer, Bruce when slipping a punch didn't give away his structure or one side to his opponent. Now then, whereas it might seem that he gave away one side, in reality he did not, for his core structure, that part that was wing chun, did not permit it.
From Bruce's many karate friends he went to work on his kicking. Still, for economy, speed and power he was able to draw a few things from his wing chun background. In otherwords, when wanting to kick hard Bruce never forgot how to stomp his kick, instead of just throwing it out there.
In Los Angeles, Bruce began training a lot of guys who were already well trained in other arts, some of which were already black belts. He saw no reason to train them from scratch to rebuild their structures. His interest was not to duplicate himself, but to help free them from their limitations. And he taught them differently.
This is why it is important for the serious follower of Bruce's method to do the research. Some of the best places to start are from the people who knew him best and trained with him, many of which have gone far beyond their ealier days with Bruce. In my opinion, there is something to be learned from all the era, including the fact that the knowledge greatly overlaps as Bruce intended that it should. I am sure that from each of Bruce's students, there is something that can be learned, as well as maybe something that only that person learned.
I once asked Jessie Glover, what was the single most important thing that he learned from Bruce? Jessie answered: "Pressure!"
My answer would have been non-intention and the meaning of decreasing. Decresing means far more than merely eliminating technique or excessive movement.
Posted On:6/07/2003 10:38am
I'll give you the very exercise that Bruce used to increase his reaction speed, although Robert already mentioned it. Bruce called it "sparking". It is a technique of spinning the hands in a variety of ways so that they are touching at the wrists, sort of a solitaire chi sao execise.
You do this while watching television. Everytime there is a "cut", where the camera cuts from one scened to another, one person to another, whatever, you flick your hands outward from their rotational movement letting them snap into white crane wrists, fingers pointed back toward the elbow. Imagine how many thousands of time you will have to spark during just one, one-half-hour tv show. This is a hard one to describe in text. I show the drill on my speed tape. Like I said, it is straight from Bruce, himself.
There, having said all of this, I should add that reaction time is not the most important factor. For instance, let's say that your reaction time is roughly 2/10ths of a second or a little faster. A world class fast draw artist would be around 1.4ths of a second. You see, there really is that much difference. But suppose you could improve your reaction speed 100%. What would that give you. You still wouldn't be quick enough to stop a fast punch, one that comes without intention.
What is important, is how to read the other man's intention so that you move before he moves, at the time he is contracting his muscles. To contract his muscles, takes intention.
By training this way, I can promise you that if you throw your fastest punch at one of my students, he will hit you first by moving last and by moving slower.
This is where it really is, nevertheless practice the sparking drill and you will not only develop quicker reaction speed, but you'll learn how to move with less effort.
Posted On:6/07/2003 5:48pm
WRITTEN BY A PATRICK STRONG STUDENT ON A FORUM :
There are different types of punches utilizing different types of power sources.
Boxing type of punches rely on forces generated by the structural mass in rotation as a primary source of power.. As the arm is transferring energy from rotation, it will not have structural alignment with respect to linear force connected from the ground. Overall penetration will not be as deep than a poled punch would be.
The poled punch is different in effect and execution. The arm is supported by a resilient interconnected structure with a direct line of grounded force. The mass of the entire structure builds kinetic energy similarly to the rotational punch, which is transferred at impact through to the target. The huge and critical difference is as the rotational punch makes contact, the follow through acceleration diminishes due to the rotation itself. Not to say the punch does not have 'snap' acceleration at the end, but by it's rotational nature, it does not continue to accelerate into the target.
When the poled punch makes contact, the mass of the body's structure is completely supported and DRIVEN IN by the STRUCTURALLY CONNECTED GROUNDED FOLLOW THROUGH. In the best case scenario, the energy transferred at contact is still accelerating through and after impact, creating deep, deep penetration.
Providing the practitioner does not take rebound, this punch will create a more focused internal shock wave and disruption, which can not only damage an organ, but actually destroy it.
When hitting a bag or an opponent, and speaking of penetration, consider a few factors.
1 - Initial impact
2 - Acceleration at impact
3 - Structural mass supporting the acceleration
4 - Overall length of power curve and follow through.
It has been suggested that to move the bag a long way might be a push. This is not necessarily so.
Ideally one wants to buckle the bag, (or opponent) at impact. With good penetration and power transfer, the bag (or opponent) does not have to move much to be extremely effective. However, with a really good poled punch, the arm will accelerate into the target at impact, and the structural mass will still follow through blowing the bag or opponent back. This is not the same thing as a push. This is about having a longer power curve, supported by solid structure.
Sometimes you need or want to blow an opponent back - stop him in his tracks.
If a strongly muscled person is moving in quickly, and you hit with a rotational punch to the body, there is a higher possibility that the punch can be jammed. This is a result of the arm/body not having the mechanical advantage of structural support.
If the same person is moving in quickly, and the punch which hits is supported by solid structure, it just might be the difference between being jammed and overwhelmed - or stopping the opponent's entry cold.
A punch which hits and transfers energy primarily at impact, such as a rotational punch will by nature create great immediate shock and certainly disruption. Break a rib, shatter a jaw, heavily disrupt internal organs.
A poled punch properly executed will penetrate, accelerate, and keep penetrating through a longer power curve - DRIVEN by the supporting structural mass in motion. This type of impact penetrates deeper.
Another way of putting it is this. A boxers punch will shatter a jaw, and put so much shock into the opponent, it will overload the brain and shut him down.
(excuse my redundancies please)
A poled punch hitting the jaw, will slam the head back extremely hard, and keep coming. An effect here would be that the head cannot outrun the mass of the body. This has lethal, lethal potential.
Joel 'Chihand' W
Stay Connected, (Internal) 'Body Sense'
Posted On:6/07/2003 6:45pm
After looking at those pictures I think Chris sould start eating his Wheaties.
Posted On:6/09/2003 10:03am
Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga
i'll never know how bad Bruce Lee could kick my ass. I don't care
'Cuz it's a Khomeini-meini world after all
There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.
Posted On:12/06/2004 2:27am
Originally Posted by Father Christmas
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
Mostly, I just sit here. Mostly.
Posted On:12/06/2004 2:37am
p.s.- entirely as a sidenote, history is nothing but personal narrative. even if that personal narrative is only about one man's experience with a "dead man's utterly notional, anecdotal fighting skills" (there are those ad homs again, subtle and sly)
I say this as a student of history; you're wrong.
I loathe the whole "unbendable arm" "unmovable posture" genre of chi tricks, they're not even remotely amusing.
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