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  1. JKDb8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2003 10:32pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    haha. But which came first the chicken or the chi? lol. The exercise applies to fighting in several different ways, it is just a convenient way to demonstrate a principle. (btw, the principle has nothing to do with chi, just bones)

    Calling the demonstration silly however, is entirely different than subtly calling Patrick Strong into question with veiled Ad Hominems.

    Oh well, I'm going to go read some history books, filled with "necrophiliac articles" about important dead people.
  2. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2003 10:47pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JKDB8,
    The caption for one of the pictures talks about chi shooting through someone's fingers. Am I reading that wrong? If not, then I'm afraid I am ENTIRELY justified in calling the credibility into question. And that's NOT ad hominem.

    I can understand a demonstration of a physical principle, but they look like Indian fakirs. This is purely an aesthetic matter.

    And history is lovely, extending an argument about a dead man's utterly notional, anecdotal fighting skills is not history.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  3. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2003 10:50pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Joel is using his Physical Structure both in his body and arm (tool). Although he allows his chi energy to flow through his arm and out his fingers, he purposely avoids using the elements of Vital Structure simply for the sake of this demonstration."



    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. MM4Guy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 12:00am


     Style: Thai Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    YAY!!! Chi energy through arm and out fingers for the purpose of a photo = coolest **** ever.

    Remember the time in the 6th grade where you got your ass-kicked by that 80-pound short-kid? Got BJJ?
    <marquee>Thai Boxing: Been kicking your ass since 1949.</marquee>
  5. JKDb8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 12:11am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel - You called Strong's reliability as a source into question. I defended it by supplying a personal experience with Strong as a person and a teacher. That is how human beings often times decide credibility, by using the experience of others. I wont buy a video game until I read a few reviews and I know that it will interest me (but at the same time dont entirely disregard my own intuition ;)).

    I am not going to explain nor defend Strong's entire fighting methodology as a whole. I do not personally believe in chi. But the methods by which "chi" is supposedly cultivated are valuable fighting methods. Strong says the best way to get chi is through breathing and relaxing. I know I fight better when I can breath and when I'm relaxed...I dont think that has anything to do with a mystical power, I just think it helps me deliver technique better. I know that when Patrick talks about chi, he is basically talking about focusing, relaxing, and breathing. He may believe that what helps him is some type of force, I think its just physics. Either way his teaching method results in the same end. But that is not really what this is about. Believe in chi or not, up to you. Believe me or not, up to you. It doesn't really bother me. I just wanted to share my experience.

    You are right about the demonstration being purely aesthetic. Just like a picture of an armbar on a website is purely aesthetic. I can't learn how to actually do an armbar from one picture. I can only know that the end result is possible. Just like these pictures only show me that it is possible to make me "stronger" by moving my body one way or the other (even if they do it in an overdramatic way).

    Last time I checked though, calling someone a necrophiliac is an ad hom (even though i know its in good humor). Posting a picture like that on a board that will be entirely unreceptive to it is in a way also an ad hom. its a way to show a side of someone that you know will make people write them off without looking twice. It's manipulative. I am not going to say its unethical necessarily; afterall, that is what debate is about. I just know that it is my job to present the opposite view. Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis.

    p.s.- entirely as a sidenote, history is nothing but personal narrative. even if that personal narrative is only about one man's experience with a "dead man's utterly notional, anecdotal fighting skills" (there are those ad homs again, subtle and sly)
  6. The Wastrel is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 12:36am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Come on. How can it be ad hom to post the pictures and the quotes to which I am referring, and in an entirely unaltered state?

    "Necrophiliac" isn't used as an earnest accusation, it's just a term I'm using to evoke, in a poetic sense, the practice or obsession of employing the reputation or mystique of the past to lend credence to a thing in the present.

    It's not that I say that the demonstration itself is aesthetic. I'm saying that whether that sort of thing bothers you or not is aesthetic. That's beyond debate.

    What they're doing is reproducible and is a genuine thing. The presentation indicates the representation of typical, explicable phenomena as mystical.

    I'm not attacking Mr. Strong as a person or as a teacher. Are you trying to tell me that their advertising is beyond criticism?

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. DANINJA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 6:28am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dont beleive in the chi energy thing but having someone push into your stance is normal in wing chun training...its a test to see if you have good structure/stable stance (called rooting).
    As for Patrick Strong ..I have his "lord of speed" video and his speed is phenomenal.He also gives excellent explanations on improving speed.In my opinion ,it is definitely the best video if you want to improve your speed.
  8. DANINJA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 6:44am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    from a forum:

    Re: Beating grapplers II Thursday, 09-Sep-1999 17:16:07

    Boy, what terrific discussions!!!

    I'm afraid this is going to be a long post, but perhaps I can share something from my own experience about learning to be a complete fighter, standup

    and on the ground.

    I began training in GJJ a little over twelve years ago with Rorion and Royce, and then with Rickson. I've also spent some time with Gene LaBelle and continue to train with other bjj people (when not too badly injured, that is). Ah, age.. Just you wait!

    Having already trained in a variety of standup arts for over twenty five years before beginning Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I was greatly surprised at how effective was their jiu jitsu. I admit that before hitting the mat with Rorion, I had thought grappler's were easy. A big part of the reason was that I had never been taken to the ground in a fight after having done some boxing and having trained with Bruce. I thought grappling. Simple stuff. He grabs. I hit. Then

    I hit some more and I destroy him, because he is too busy being slow and trying to grab on to something. Others that I knew felt the same way. Ralph Alegria being one, until he got into the ring with Rorion. There had been many before, and there were many that would follow. In the case of the Gracies, they had been making their jiu jitsu against all kinds of fighers from all kinds of disciplines for over 60 years, both in the ring and on the street.

    They had gone onto developed their jiu jistu in the arena of cold reality.

    By learning jiu jitsu, I completely changed not only my opinion of grappling, but also my stand-up strategy, over-all methodology and, to some degree, even my mechanics, or at least, modified them. The changes greatly improved my stand up effectiveness.

    For instance, before learning jiu jitsu, my strategy was to try and end the fight as quickly as possible, even in the light of taking some risk. Jiu Jitsu, on the other hand, drilled into me the idea that it was more important to keep control of the fight, and not to be in such a hurry.

    I found that such strategies in jiu jitsu such as using base, getting position before attacking, and taking away the opponent's comfort and the room to be effective were all things that I should apply to my standup. After all, I had many of the basic skills drawn from wing chun's connection and sensitivity training to serve me. In actuality, I had always been doing that to some degree. But now, I would really have to go to work on it.

    I thought WOW, what if I could develop a standing base, not unlike the principle to the mounted base. I took this to Hawkins Cheung, my sifu and Bruce's old friend and training partner. Right away, we went to work on it.

    Guess what? It was there all the time. Chi Sao. All I had to do was make some modificaton, strenghten some things, and work, work, work... So I did, did, did...

    Meanwhile, I had learned from the Gracies (all experts in real fighting) that position was everything (just like our friend Joe says). I learned that I didn't have to always be in such a hurry to get something, as I could afford to wait for the right moment, when the opportunity best presented itself. I learned that I could be dangerous at any given second. From Rickson, I learned a new way to breath that kept my body and mind better relaxed, and less

    susceptible to fatigue. And, turning on and off muscle groups and joints as to not waist energy while providing your opponent with a handle to get a hold of, was something I was well aware of from my wing chun. I was stunned at the similarities inherent in the two systems of fighting, even though one was mostly ground and one was primarily standup.

    I learned how to smother my opponent as if I were a fish net made of flexible lead. Here was another strategy and method found in my beloved Chi Sao. I would heighten these principles, and work.. work.. work on them.

    Great!!! I was on to something that could be better applied to my standup, namely standing base, positioning, and taking away my opponent's comfort and room to be effectice in his strikes or counters.

    I had learned from the Gracies that one of the reasons it was so easy for them to penetrate a stand up fighter was because of his rotation when striking and countering. Therefore, my standing base would consist of both arms/hands applying equal pressure at appropriate places on his body, always sensitive to his changes and balance while affording me the openings to strike effectively both from the standpoints of power and, most important, accuracy.

    I had noticed that Tank Abbot in his first UFC fight (I had orignally worked with Rorion on the idea of promoting such fights, but backed out of the deal having failed to bring in top ranking professional boxers, mainly Tyson, or even some of the older guys like Holmes and Foreman) against the Hawaiian bone crusher/grappler (a huge guy)was tremendously effective when using lin sil dar. He was using the standing base against the bone crusher who was left all but impotant. At the time, I was wondering where Tank learned it. Not that he was that good with the technique, but still he was indeed effective. I was later suprised to see that he never used it again. Was it a fluke? A range of the moment expediency?

    I already knew how to power my standing base, from my wing chun structure. LOL, in itself, not that much different in principle than that used in GJJ.

    Getting position required a different kind of footwork that would enabled me to alter the line against my opponent's central line without deferring the pressure of my jam. I got this one from Hawkins.

    My increased pressure and standing base served to overpower my opponent's bstructions with relative ease on my part. All that chi sao stuff was really beginning to pay off in a big way, but with some modifications.

    The main problem that I was now having was that my immoveable elbow integrity was being compromised by the development of my "swimming elbows" from grappling. Oh well...

    Martial arts was entering a revolution, and so was I. Grapplers were all but dominating no-holds-barred competitions. It appeard that standup fighters were lost. Then the unimanable happend. Maurice Smith (stand up fighter) with some ground fighting backup defeated the, then invincible Mark Coleman, a world class wrestler bursting with muscles and strength derived from huge training regimes and powerful steroids.

    Maurice Smith fought his fight not so much as a stand up vrs. ground, but "aerobics" vrs. "anerobics" Maurice knew enough ground to survive until he regained his feet. Then he went to work. We saw the same sort of thing happen against the huge Brazilian fighter, Conan from Carlson Gracies group. Round kicks to the legs, and a big one to the head. It happened a few more times where either punches or kicks fell the grapplers. While stand up fighters began to realize that they needed to learn the ground, the ground fighters recognized the need to learn how to hit.

    I was able to develop my stand up striking, trapping, and the unique mechanics taught to me by Bruce to striking on the ground. And, my martial ability was growing at a faster rate than at any time in my life. The answer for me was to improve my grappling and step up my wing chun skills. Yet, I also knew that the best stuff that I had ever learned had come from Bruce. And it was this stuff, that made me different.

    I had many discussions with Gene Labelle who had taught Bruce some grappling. From Gene I learned the reason for Bruce's intense interest in absorbing grappling into his method. In short, if it was good enough for Bruce, it was good enough for the gander.

    This has been a long post, and I am not going to even reread it, in fear that I might change my mind and delete its entirety.

    What I would be interested in hearing from any of you grappler/jkd'rs that got through this stuff, are the following:

    1) What has grappling taught you about stand up?

    2) What has your stand up taught you about grappling?

    3) If you are like me, the grappling (particularly GJJ) has gained for you a heightened interest in details. Do you analyze the details of your stand up

    principles and mechanics?

    I would love to hear from you. Whew, I quit!

    Patrick Strong
  9. DANINJA is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 6:46am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    video clips:

    http://www.chihand.com/video.htm
  10. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 7:40am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That was better.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
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