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  1. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Jan 2006
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 12:35pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma
    A judo BB even told me that leglocks "don't work."
    meh...that's pretty funny. Besides, I thought it was just until recently (last 5 years or so) that SOME BJJ schools started to teach submissions below the waist.

    Are leg locks, other than straight knee and ankle locks, now typically allowed in standard BJJ competition? Pan-Ams, Mundinals, BJJ Worlds, etc...not Grapplers Quest, ADCC, or NAGA type tourneys.

    I apologize to J3SSTER for significantly derailing his thread.
  2. Shawarma is online now

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 12:38pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. Usually for competitors above a certain level, and several comps ban heelhooks outright, due to the nasty effects of tapping too late to a heelhook.
  3. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 2:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heelhooks are dangerous. Very dangerous.

    Here is MY reasoning on why: Most other locks have a muscle group that opposes the action. For example, a Kimura has the entire deltoid and pectoral girdle for support. A straight armlock has a bicep. A kneebar can be resisted using the hamstrings. Even a straight footlock can be resisted by flexing the foot.

    Get my point?

    The heelhook puts pressure on the joint in direction it was not meant to go, and the body has no real muscle group designed to protect it. Sure the hip flexors can rotate the leg slightly, but this shouldn't even be put in the same ballpark as the other submissions mentioned.

    Heelhooks require very little pressure to apply, and the rotational torque has a tendency to tear out those crucial ligaments inside the knee as well as those MCL and LCL's on the side. In addition, the meniscus is also easily torn. If you have experienced a knee injury like a torn ACL, and the surgery required to repair it you realize how devestating a knee injury can be. Ligaments and meniscus do not repair themselves like muscles do. And a heelhook does not go against a muscle. It goes against ligaments and meniscus.

    Now SOME competitions will allow heel hooks. Some will not. Some divisions in some competitions will allow them also. If you freely practice heelhooks and feel it is such an important part of your submission arsenal there are plenty of competitions you can still enter OUTSIDE the CBJJ rules. NAGA in all divisions and GQ in some certainly allow them.

    Last year at NAGA my first round draw was against Chris Brennan. He heelhooked me pretty quick. And I tapped pretty quick. No damage done. But this was in the advanced division. Earlier that year at GQ I saw a guy who is probably still limping around get WRECKED from an inverted heelhook. It was in the advanced division too. He wasnt able to tap quickly and his opponent had no mercy on him. Comparitively speaking Brennan applied incremental pressure as I was spiraling down. The guy at GQ did a ballistic crank. Moral of the story is 2 guys in the advanced divisions in competitions with 2 very different outcomes.

    At the beginner and even intermediate levels people often do not have the level of control and experience to apply incremental pressure, and people on the receiving end often do not have the experience to know when they are in danger of being heelhooked.
  4. Hedgehogey is offline
    Hedgehogey's Avatar

    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 2:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by rokutanda
    Or are many BJJ techniques completely original and cannot be found in,
    say, Kosen Judo or Jujutsu?
    Noone has yet been able to complete my Kosen Judo scavenger hunt.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  5. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 2:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Heelhooks are dangerous. Very dangerous.

    Here is MY reasoning on why: Most other locks have a muscle group that opposes the action. For example, a Kimura has the entire deltoid and pectoral girdle for support. A straight armlock has a bicep. A kneebar can be resisted using the hamstrings. Even a straight footlock can be resisted by flexing the foot.

    Get my point?

    The heelhook puts pressure on the joint in direction it was not meant to go, and the body has no real muscle group designed to protect it. Sure the hip flexors can rotate the leg slightly, but this shouldn't even be put in the same ballpark as the other submissions mentioned.

    Heelhooks require very little pressure to apply, and the rotational torque has a tendency to tear out those crucial ligaments inside the knee as well as those MCL and LCL's on the side. In addition, the meniscus is also easily torn. If you have experienced a knee injury like a torn ACL, and the surgery required to repair it you realize how devestating a knee injury can be. Ligaments and meniscus do not repair themselves like muscles do. And a heelhook does not go against a muscle. It goes against ligaments and meniscus.

    Now SOME competitions will allow heel hooks. Some will not. Some divisions in some competitions will allow them also. If you freely practice heelhooks and feel it is such an important part of your submission arsenal there are plenty of competitions you can still enter OUTSIDE the CBJJ rules. NAGA in all divisions and GQ in some certainly allow them.

    Last year at NAGA my first round draw was against Chris Brennan. He heelhooked me pretty quick. And I tapped pretty quick. No damage done. But this was in the advanced division. Earlier that year at GQ I saw a guy who is probably still limping around get WRECKED from an inverted heelhook. It was in the advanced division too. He wasnt able to tap quickly and his opponent had no mercy on him. Comparitively speaking Brennan applied incremental pressure as I was spiraling down. The guy at GQ did a ballistic crank. Moral of the story is 2 guys in the advanced divisions in competitions with 2 very different outcomes.

    At the beginner and even intermediate levels people often do not have the level of control and experience to apply incremental pressure, and people on the receiving end often do not have the experience to know when they are in danger of being heelhooked.
    This is the best bio-mechanical breakdown demonstrating the dangers of misapplied or spazzed heelhooks I have ever seen, perfect.

    Personally, I love heelhooks, and I always apply them very incramentally. If the person I am rolling with does not tap or tries to fight out of it I just release it and keep rolling. Now competition applied heelhooks are a completely different animal than dojo randori heelhooks in that the adrenaline level is much higher as is the pain thresh-hold for the competitors. The tap or snap mentallity of some competitors will quickly end up with a torn meniscus or one or more of the four main ligaments holding the knee together.

    ****, Inverted Heelhooks are th3 r34l d34dly, fucking nasty submission.
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Toronto
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 2:57pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have more of a traditional JJ back ground and have started doing some BJJ.

    The GoJu-Jitsu I do is pretty good but what it is lacking and what BJJ has is a very scientific and tested approach to the small stuff, little things about placement and positioning such when going for certain submissions before.

    Sure I knew the basic mechanics of the submissions but the postioning I am learning in BJJ to get to and apply those submissions is very helpful.
  7. UpaLumpa is offline
    UpaLumpa's Avatar

    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 4:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    me, so unless you have rolled with a ranked BJJ player, you cannot teach the guard?
    That's stupid.

    The real question is where they're getting their "brazillian concepts". The school may well be great but there is a little bs involved.
  8. J3SSTER is offline

    Featherweight

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    Jul 2006
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 5:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ok tell me if this sounds like jjj or bjj going off my first class.

    I walk in, sign a waver, take my shoes off, and sit down and watch for about 5 minutes as a guy explains to me closed and open guard, half guard, mount, and side mount. Then he showed me some basic submissions, 3 different ankle locks, rear naked and guillotine choke, a triangle from guard, and a kimura. Then after drilling all these for about an hour, and going up and down the mat with hip escapes, i got assigned to another guy, i think he said he was a brown belt, and we rolled around for about 45 minutes. needless to say i never tapped him, and he tore me up.
  9. UpaLumpa is offline
    UpaLumpa's Avatar

    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 5:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Doesn't sound like most jjj.
    Sounds like a grappling school.
    Still doesn't make it bjj, though that's somewhat moot.
  10. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    London, UK
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2006 5:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only thing that sounds unusual is that they taught you ankle locks first, and that they showed you so many things in a first class.
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