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  1. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2007 5:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shoushutiger
    dude, why don't u stop hating on shou shu and, like talk about other stuff
    Sorry man, but this thread is about Shou Shu after all. Why not counter the information being presented in a logical manner instead of what you posted.
  2. shoushutiger is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2007 5:31pm


     Style: Hei Long Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    no i know, but this guy started like four forums just bashing shou shu, and ive already given him points about it and stuff, and, well i assumed he had enough but hey, call me an ass for assuming lol
  3. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    1/18/2007 5:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shoushutiger
    no i know, but this guy started like four forums just bashing shou shu, and ive already given him points about it and stuff, and, well i assumed he had enough but hey, call me an ass for assuming lol
    Oh, cool, well don't let me disturb the two of you.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2007 9:13pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Truth Seeker, if you want to make a point give it to us in edited version.
  5. Truth seeker is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2007 9:36pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sorry!

    Grand Master Al Tracy Profile Page

    E-mail reply from Al Tracy to a Shou Shu instructor:

    Subject: Re: Sensitive Question: Sorry to hear about Albert: Yes, he and his brother studied kenpo with us in the late 60's and they were some of our original Black Belts. They actually did most of their studying under Bob Blackmoore one of our Black Belts. Al Tracy (2002)

    Tracy Kenpo techniques found in Shou Shu, Tumbling Clouds,A,B,C, The Dagger, Sleeper, etc. Find other Shou Shu techniques listed on the Tracy technique page below!

    New Page Tracy Technique page.

    Master Ted Sumner/8 degree/Police officer




    San Jose Kenpo Karate

    Has anyone heard of Al Moore and his schools of Shou Shu in Ca. It is my understanding he started in the Tracy's system back in the early 60's.

    Ted Sumner: Boy, you really are taking me back a ways. Al Moore Sr. and Jr. were students of Bob Blackmoore back around '67-68' Bob Blackmoore was a student of Hugh Alford at the old San Jose school. The Moore's were never around the San Jose dojo, which, given the high level of violent and insane behavior at that nuthouse, may not have been a bad thing. They studied at Alford's dojo in the Concord/Walnut Creek area and in the late 60's either purshased the school from alford or opened their own. Though what they taught had it's base in tracy Kenpo, it was their own adulterant version of the art which they called Shou Shu. I do not know what has become of them, although I had heard that sr. passed away. (TED)


    Steve: Thank you Ted. I heard that Al Sr. passed away a few years ago. moore's seem to have about 15 schools through out Ca. Some people say that Al Sr. trained in China after World War ll for a period of time. do you know if that is true?

    Ted sumner: Not to my knowledge! I have never heard anything to that effect. ( They pretty much looked like average beginners when they started. ) (TED Sumner) Dec. 13, 2004

    (3) Similarites, and Tie's with the Men of American Kenpo system.

    Sigung Steve LaBounty



    Sigung Stephen LaBounty - American Kenpo

    MartialTalk.Com - View Single Post - Richard Lee and Bok Fu

    E-mail reply to a parent of a Shou Shu student:

    No problem, after I re-Read the website I noticed they mentioned the Tracy Brothers, but not Richard Lee (Couvelier) nor me. Al & Ralph primarily, trained with me for a short period. They started with Richard Lee who was a Tracy student with a school in Castro Valley, who hired me to train his higher ranks in Kenpo, this on the recommendation of Al Tracy.

    Vernon Moore, "Little" Al, Moore's son, and Jerry Melvin joined in to learn the Parker system more intensely. I had a school in the Fresno area that was floundering, so I loved to teach, needed the money and liked this group of people a lot. Essentially a no brainer.

    All of this was in the late 60's. Big Al and Ralph decided to go their own way and get into the Shou Shu material. We parted amicably but several of the Lee and Moore students continued to train with me for a couple of years. Again, this was amicable on my part and on the Moore's part as well, at least that was my impression.

    I had no knowledge of Al Moore's training prior to his taking kenpo. I didn't learn of it until they became successful with their own schools and began raising up high ranking belts. I don't keep up on these things unless my name is mentioned.

    I have seen several of their (lower) forms in tournaments, and they look like our lower forms, only with a Chinese influence. I 've had no contact with any of the Moore family for over 25 years and don't really know where they are based out of or what they are doing. I hope this helps a bit. Once again, good luck. S. LaBounty (2005)

    Bryan Hawkins 6th degree

    American Kenpo



    Bryan Hawkins Bio

    The Journey - By Joe Hyams

    Page 111, Quoted " Shou Shu ment the way of the animal, and was really a combination of Kenpo and white crane Kung Fu, Al and Ralph Moore, operators of a chain of karate schools in northern California, owned the studio. Steve LaBounty, one of Ed Parkers first Black Belts had been their instructor.." Mr Hawkins held a blue belt in Shou Shu before moving on to the American Kenpo system. For you TV buffs Bryan Hawkins was Don Johnsons west coast bodyguard!



    (4) Similarities, and ties with Richard Lee and the Tracy and and Bok Fu Do Systems.


    Grand Master Richard Lee
    Mr LaBounty says Mr. Moore studied with Mr Lee one of only three 10th degree black belts in the Tracy system. Around 1967 Mr Lee developed The Bok Fu Kenpo / Kung Fu system.

    Mr. LaBounty says Mr. Moore left to get into the Shou Shu system in the late 60's, this would put Mr. Moore with Mr Lee and the Bok Fu system for around three years. At this point in time if the gentlemen listed above are correct Mr Moore and family had trained in all three systems, Tracy, American Kenpo, and Bok Fu durring the early 60's to the late 60's.

    KO Kung Fu Richard Lee's Bio,

    KO Kung Fu and Shou Shu techniques

    Shou Shu Black Belt.


    I do remember that Ralph Moore did report a relationship between East-West and Moore's Karate, though he claimed that East-West was trained by He and Al with the intention of having East-West act as a subsidary of Moore's. Naturally, Ralph's report could be a load of XXX or have some level of truth in it. In your research, have you been able to find any third party evidence that could collaborate anyone's reports?



    Typically when doing research on historical documents and oral accounts, one has to look for such evidence.


    (Third Party Rebuttle)



    Hi all,


    There seems to be a lot of confusion out there, and I've seen either negative or at best neutral comments about Bok-Fu-Do and/or Grandmaster Richard Lee, so I just want to set the record straight.


    Just to be clear so you know where this is comming from, I'm one of the instructors at the East-West School in Alamo, CA.


    First, West Wind and some other schools that teach a Bok-Fu-Do like system, have a very limited connection to East-West, and are not at all affiliated with our school or Grandmaster Richard Lee. These schools were started by people whom at one time or another studied at East-West, and some never even achieved their black belt. They decided to go into business for themselves and start their own schools. Richard Lee's East-West Kung-Fu (Bok-Fu-Do) school in Alamo, CA is not associated with any of these other schools in any way, except for 1: KO Kung Fu in San Jose, CA. KO Kung Fu is owned by Master John Ozuna, one of Grandmaster Lee's blackbelts (4th degree).


    Now, on Grandmaster Richard Lee's behalf, I'll post a summary of his bio. below to hopefully clarify our schools lineage and shed some more light on where Bok-Fu-Do comes from.


    Should you have any questions, please feel free to contact me directly.

    Karate Korner Message Board - Martial Arts Discussion Forum










    Last edited by Truth seeker; 7/24/2007 3:29pm at .
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2007 10:25pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me clarify:

    As you put out your information let us know what arguement points you are clarifying. I you trying to prove a point. What exactly is the point. I mean literally give us an editorial of all your cut and paste.
  7. Won Dom Fok is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2007 10:55pm


     Style: Five Animal KF

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So San Shou means something or other operations?
  8. Truth seeker is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2007 7:37pm


     Style: American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Not Sure!

    In our research, we found many different Chinese languages, We found three different resorces for shou shu definitions, being as claimed Mandarin. Found out that one word can stand for one thing, but when linked with another changes the meaniing altogether.


    MDBG Chinese-English dictionary - Word dictionary basic


    Good Luck!
  9. King Sleepless is offline
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    I am a living legend!

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    Posted On:
    1/21/2007 7:51pm

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     Style: Tatsumaki Senpuu Kyaku

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ladies and Gentlemen we're being trolled. Trust me on this. I know trolling when I see it.
  10. Buffman is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/21/2007 8:05pm


     Style: MT Injured

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is starting to feel like

    "Return of the living GABSTER"
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