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  1. Mr. Jones is offline
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    resident sick ****

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 1:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKDer
    "Ruining"? Would you go as far as to say "ruin"? Judo players today are still pretty well rounded for the most part, granted their newaza skills far short of what they used to be back int he day.
    no leg locks, no standing armlocks, no wristlocks, what else am I missing? Oh and stalling.
    カンフー
  2. babo78 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 3:11pm


     Style: Yudo, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
    no leg locks, no standing armlocks, no wristlocks, what else am I missing? Oh and stalling.
    You kind of shot yourself in foot by mentioning standing armlocks and wristlocks. Those are pretty low % technique even if it was allowed. In my opinion, very low % technique.

    Stalling is an issue but that's also found in other grappling arts so it's not that big of issue.

    Leg locks and increasing regulations on illegal techniques does hurt Judo overall as martial art in my opinon.
  3. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 3:17pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree Kodokan newaza falls short of Kosen newaza. But it's still important to remember that most judo players are still well rounded and are adept at both tachiwaza and newaza.

    Leg locks and neck cranks have been banned, but chokes and armlocks are still allowed which are high percentage submissions anyway.

    Bottom line is... judo and judo players are still well rounded. Judo has a good reputation in the martial arts community for a reason.
  4. babo78 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2006 3:21pm


     Style: Yudo, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKDer
    I agree Kodokan newaza falls short of Kosen newaza. But it's still important to remember that most judo players are still well rounded and are adept at both tachiwaza and newaza.

    Leg locks and neck cranks have been banned, but chokes and armlocks are still allowed which are high percentage submissions anyway.

    Bottom line is... judo and judo players are still well rounded. Judo has a good reputation in the martial arts community for a reason.
    Mr Jones said standing armlocks.

    Judo is well rounded. But that wasn't the point MONGO was trying to make and me agreeing to it. Point was that Judo became diluted in newaza once it turned into sports Judo thanks to Olympic.
  5. redcarded is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 3:51am


     Style: CLF

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maeda taught the Gracies Kosen Judo, since that was the pedagological generation that he was from. If you want to see good Kosen Judo, look at BJJ. The sportification of Judo was something that Kano pushed himself, being an IOC member and all. He saw it as a way of bringing people together, education and enlightenment through sport and other very western Victorian period educational ideas.

    Instead of focussing on a million techniques, he just kept the techniques that could be practiced at full speed without disabling your opponent. Why did leg and neck cranks go? I guess either he, or he had seen enough other people injured with them in training to think they were a high risk of injury move.
  6. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 5:05am

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     Style: Bits and pieces

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just a question for the Judoka here, how much of your class is actually devoted to newaza? Having talked to a good few Judoka lately the average response seems to be "we do a few minutes every class and then do a long session every couple of months".
  7. babo78 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 8:12am


     Style: Yudo, Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odacon
    Just a question for the Judoka here, how much of your class is actually devoted to newaza? Having talked to a good few Judoka lately the average response seems to be "we do a few minutes every class and then do a long session every couple of months".
    It really depends on the dojo and sensei you train under. Imo, I'd say 80/20 (standup/ground) in most Judo. Most people I've seen say is 50/50.
  8. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 8:23am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
    no leg locks, no standing armlocks, no wristlocks, what else am I missing? Oh and stalling.
    Standing armlocks are A-OK, judo legal, just too low percentage to be seen often. I've tapped people with them, I've been tapped with them, infrequently on both counts.

    Wristlocks just aren't -that- useful. It's been some time since I've seen anyone use one in my local BJJ sessions.

    Leglocks have their place, but even most BJJ tournaments tend to have some kind of leglock restrictions. Feel free to look into the reasons for this.

    Turtling to stall matches should IMO be subject to the same passivity restrictions as apply in tachiwaza, and yes, I blame it more than anything else for making judo ne-waza suck unnecessarily.

    Percentage of ne-waza varies, 80-20 is probably not far off for many places. Some are better, a few are worse. The real problem I see with the teaching is that it's far less structured than BJJ's teaching and frequently less detailed.
  9. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 6:59pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by odacon
    Just a question for the Judoka here, how much of your class is actually devoted to newaza? Having talked to a good few Judoka lately the average response seems to be "we do a few minutes every class and then do a long session every couple of months".
    Depends how long is a "few minutes". Newaza-only randori should be done every class.

    And I guess 80/20 ratio isn't too uncommon but most people I've talked to gave me more even ratios.

    And most people I've talked to have said a ratio less than 90/10 is unlikely unless you are a hardcore, elite competitor who is already good at newaza and needs to improve tachiwasza.
  10. TKDer is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/22/2006 7:02pm


     Style: Kukki-Taekwondo, Yudo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Standing armlocks are A-OK, judo legal, just too low percentage to be seen often. I've tapped people with them, I've been tapped with them, infrequently on both counts.

    Wristlocks just aren't -that- useful. It's been some time since I've seen anyone use one in my local BJJ sessions.

    Leglocks have their place, but even most BJJ tournaments tend to have some kind of leglock restrictions. Feel free to look into the reasons for this.

    Turtling to stall matches should IMO be subject to the same passivity restrictions as apply in tachiwaza, and yes, I blame it more than anything else for making judo ne-waza suck unnecessarily.

    Percentage of ne-waza varies, 80-20 is probably not far off for many places. Some are better, a few are worse. The real problem I see with the teaching is that it's far less structured than BJJ's teaching and frequently less detailed.
    Do you honestly believe judo newaza sucks? Most judo players tend to be pretty decent at newaza compared to sambokas. Judo = well rounded
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