Thread: BJJ = Battlefield Jujutsu?
7/01/2006 12:27pm, #1
BJJ = Battlefield Jujutsu?
A thread over at MAP reminded me of a section I read at the beginning of the Machado book "Encyclopedia of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".
Basically, there was a BJK student that took a free BJJ class then, shared his experiences. The majority of his experience showed BJJ as a purely "Sport" system, a system that neglected many aspects of "Street Self Defense".
This thread isn't meant to be a BJK bash thread, as that is happening elsewhere.
The purpose of this thread is to rediscover much of the "Street Application" thought lost in modern BJJ curriculums.
The history section I read in the aforementioned Machado text quoted several Judo players commenting on the early development of BJJ. It was quoted as looking "a lot like older, more traditional jujutsu" and "pre-sport Judo". At the time, as written by Machado, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was actually designed as more of a "Street Judo"...a system that would work outside of conventional Olympic Judo guidelines and tested in a no-rules environment with full-contact striking as well as grappling.
In Modern Combat Sports, the idea of "No Rules" fighting is commonplace...and maybe even a bit stale. Here in California we have weekly "King of the Cage", "Cage Rage", "Pankration", and all sorts of rules-lite, full-contact competitions...in fact, such competitions are so common that they've become yet another classification of "Sport Combat"...rather than the "Reality Based Environment" used to test the effectiveness of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu during its creation.
What was once described as a "No Rules Street Effective Judo" style is now considered yet another "Rules Enforced Competitive Sport" style...a style so far removed from "Reality Self Defense" as to be considered inappropriate (falsely) for some RBSD advocates.
The purpose of this thread is to try and find the link between ancient "Battlefiend Jujutsu" techniques and their modern "Sport BJJ" counterpart.
The commonalities are there...they just require someone experienced in "Classical" and "Sport" systems to make the connections, show the "Battlefield" predecessor and the refined "Sport" technique, and draw conclusions that prove that modern "Sport BJJ" stylists aren't in fact far removed from "Battlefield Jujutsu" stylists.
What are the breaking points of evolution for modern "Sport" submissions? (i.e. From Limb Break Disarms to Limb Submissions, "Old Juji Gatame" vs Modern Armbar, etc...)
How similar are positioning skills in regards to "Armored" and "Unarmored" combat?
What remains constant regardless of the inception of rules and guidelines?
How difficult is it to draw the line between "Past Effectiveness" and "Modern Sport Adaption"?
How can we show that "Real, Classical Stylists" are in fact not far removed from "Rules Enforced Competitors"...and vice versa?
7/01/2006 12:49pm, #2
Didn't reall all of the post, only the top part.
BJJ emphasises "position before submission" for a reason. You get knee on belly or mount on someone, and even if you don't know how to do a regular armbar, you can still bash the guy in the face or run away. That's street application right there.
Going from being mounted to being in someone's guard is another example. In sport BJJ, guard is generally neutral. In MMA/t3h Str33t, you can pound the guy in the face.
Who gives a **** about battlefield JJ? Nobody wears armor these days, it's a moot point.
BJJ has developed to work today, not 500 years ago.
7/01/2006 8:36pm, #3
Originally Posted by War Phalange
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
- East coast
7/01/2006 8:37pm, #4
7/01/2006 9:18pm, #5
RBSD larpers will refer to anything besides what they are doing as ineffective and/or only good for "sport." It's their cop-out that they use to hide their own inner demons of inferiority.
7/01/2006 9:28pm, #6
Yeah I'm sick of hearing this armed and un armed combat ****.
If anyone pulls a wepon on you, then your in trouble unless your an elite martial artist. Its been proven many times competition arts like Judo and BJJ produce fighters who can hold there own. If you can handle your self on the mat and in the ring, you got a good chance of handling yourself in a self defense situation.
Why ? Because you KNOW your techniques work. You pulled them off against a skilled resisting opponant in competition. Someone who was well trained.Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
7/01/2006 10:10pm, #7
7/01/2006 10:16pm, #8
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
I was thinking about this yesterday. Do you know when my last 'street fight' was? It was at least 5 years ago when I was still young, stupid, and drunk. I'm a mature adult now. I dont get stupid drunk and tell people that they are bitches. In fact, I havn't even come close to a fight outside of the club. I train for sport and thats good enough. If the skills transfer to the street thats fine. People worried about self defense really should look into getting a gun, taser, peper spray, etc. People who think about being street lethal really have deeper mental and social issues. I'm confident in my ablities on the mat. If they transfer to the street then so be it. But I'm not going to worry about it. IF you come at me on the street and ask for my wallet, you can have it.
My only real concern is for my wife. I teacher her techniques for rape defense. She goes jogging alone near the river (which is safe, but you never can know). BJJ is great for rape defense.
7/04/2006 9:42pm, #9
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
- East coast
Good post, FP.
7/05/2006 12:14pm, #10
I got yer battlefield Jujitsu right here...
Jesus loves you. I think you're an asshole.