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  1. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Aug 2002
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    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:23am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I looked at it, but just because it has graphs and words you don't understand doesn't mean it's good science.
  2. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:27am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [some excerpt for the lazy people amongst us]

    * It was precisely this lack of knowledge that prompted the Kodokan to scientifically and intensively study the effects of choking the human body. A description of the experiments and the accompanying results were published by the Kodokan in a bilingual (Japanese and English) book called the Bulletin of the Association for the Scientific Studies on Judo, Kodokan, Report 1, "Physiological Studies on Choking in Judo."

    Is there any danger in the use of shimewaza? This is what a team of experts came together to try to discover. Representing several of Japan's foremost medical schools and universities as well as the Kodokan, this group of medical specialists and ranking educators used the electroencephalograph to detect brain changes; the earoxymeter for blood oxygen saturation, the sphygmomanometer for arterial blood pressure; the plethysmograph peripheral blood vessel reaction and the micropipometer for skin temperature changes. Other studies probed the plasma protein concentration, blood water volume, hematrocrit complete blood count, eosinophil count and urine 17 keto-steroid content.



    * After only 10 seconds of choking, the victims fell unconscious. As soon as they were diagnosed unconscious, the per former released them and, the subjects remained unconscious from 10 to 12 seconds. During this period the victims some times developed clonic, a jerking or fluttering, cramps.
  3. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:41am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Show me the results published in a peer-reviewed publication published by a third party (not the kodokan) and I will stop calling this mickey mouse science
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:57am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where am I going to find links to scientific journals online. The library of congress. I might try that but this is what google.com came up with.

    Maybe the fact that Judo players helped and participated in the study makes it an uncontrolled group but medical people were there. I'll keep looking for a more reliable study. Here is more of what I found online though:


    "How Safe Is judo Choking" by E. K. Koiwai, M.D.
    http://www.judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

    Considerable scientific research has been done by the Japanese. These results are published in two reports of the Bulletin of the Association for Scientific Studies on Judo, Kodokan, in 1958 and 1963. They studied the physiological effects of choking in Judo by using the electroencephalogram for brain wave changes, the earoxymeter for blood oxygen saturation, the sphygmamometer for arterial blood pressure, the plethysmograph for reaction of peripheral blood vessels, the micro-pipometer for skin temperature changes. Others also studied the plasma protein concentration, blood water volume, hematocrit, complete blood count, eosinophil count, and urine 17 keto-steroid content. They were, of course, interested to know if there were any deleterious effects during and after the shime-waza was applied and what precautions should be taken to prevent any serious consequences. The following are some of the conclusions made based on their experiments with human subjects and animals.

    1. Unconsciousness occurs approximately 10 seconds (8-14 seconds) after choking. After release from the choke hold, the subject regains consciousness naturally (spontaneously) without difficulty in 10-20 seconds.

    2. In hadaka-jime the pressure on the larynx and trachea produced excruciating pain but there was no pain in other techniques before unconsciousness.

    A similar page:

    * Forensic literature says that if you are going to kill a person by interrupting blood flow to their brain, you need to hold pressure for minimum two minutes, although the person may blackout much sooner. If applied to a person under stress during a struggle, a strangle may make the person unconscious almost immediately, while it may take several seconds for a calm person to pass out. Reay and Eisele's 1983 article in the American Journal of Forensic Pathology "Death from law enforcement neck holds" states that with the judo-derived police carotid sleeper hold, blood flow to the head is reduced by an average of 85% in approximately six seconds.

    http://tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Chokes/ChokeInfo.htm

    This one is for omega:

    *Traditional resuscitation techniques include:

    - The direct massage of the carotid triangle on the neck to open up a collapsed artery or to manually stimulate the carotid sinus.

    - Methods of assisting the victim in waking up and focusing attention, such as slapping the victim, striking the sole of the foot, or yelling.

    - Methods of inducing or simulating breathing through massage of the chest or diaphragm by expanding and contracting the lungs.

    - With the victim sitting before you, from behind, bend your right knee and place the kneecap against the person's spine. Spread your fingers and place your hands on his or her lower chest, hooking your fingers under the lower ribs. Pull back as if opening the ribs to either side, put your weight on the shoulders to bend the body back, and press with your right knee. This will draw air into the lungs. When the ribs have opened as far as they will go, release them. Air will be exhaled from the lungs. Repeat the process slowly and regularly.

    - Kneel to the right of the victim and support his or her upper body with your left arm around the shoulder. Put the palm of your right hand on the abdomen, just above the navel, and press up against the solar plexus or pit of the stomach. This will cause the diaphragm to rise, expelling air from the lungs. Reinforce the action by bending the upper body forward with your left arm. Gently release your pressure to allow air to enter the lungs. Repeat this procedure until respiration is restored.

    - Lay the victim on his or her back and kneel astride the hips. Place your hands, fingers spread apart and pointing toward his or her head, on the bottom of the rib cage. Lean forward and press against the ribs to make him or her exhale, then relax the pressure. Repeat this procedure, rocking forward and back, until the victim can breathe without assistance. Similarly this can be done with the victim on his stomach.

    http://tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Chokes/ChokeInfo.htm

    More of the same:

    http://members.tripod.com/~rory73/articles/articles.html#police

    >> Perhaps it was because I had an inherent skill for the science and never deviated from natural principles. - Miyamoto Musashi 1643
  5. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 1:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    www.pubmed.gov
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:02pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks 9chambers we actually new those techniques. And yes that is a control group. You need more than 1. I don't think they did this right. I might have mentioned it, or was being completely biased and neglected to do so (truthfully for the point of debate), but we had a control group that came up with similiar readings of the Kodokan(sp).

    My point is that if you tell somebody that it takes that long and don't warn them that it can actually happen much sooner trouble may follow. Hence the phrase "What are you guys trying to do kill somebody?"

    With both facts put out there then we all stand better educated. Plus I was trying to be a post whore. bwhahaahahahahaahahahaah.

    Go away I'm talking to myself
  7. MMA_Phil is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 6:11pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the other guy is fighting it really hard, which they should be. Then it'll be pretty easy to tell they're unconscious when they go all limp (unless they're trying to trick you).
    I think that unless the person has some sort of medical condition it's safe enough.

    Two minutes for death? Woohoo! I guessed right.

    Good post again 9chambers.
  8. mikus is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 6:16pm


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think about when someone goes for it while we're standing. Which way am I getting yanked? The first escape I ever learned was a shoulder throw, but that is just ridiculous if your being yanked backwards. If I'm already being off-balanced that direction I can frequently escape by going with it and twisting out toward his elbow and even ending up behind the guy who was just behind me. If we're on the ground, who's on top? Are we face down or up? Hooks in or not? Long sleeves on or sweaty and sleeveless? When it starts to set in where is your chin already pointed?

    I actually learned a hip throw as a counter if the person isn't yank you back. Do you mean simply yanking you back or do you mean collapsing one of your knees and taking you down? Because if someone does that, you can go with it and sometimes get a shoulder throw as you're falling, which gives you an advantage (though granted, not as big of one as the hip throw when the person *isn't* yanking you).

    He carries a gun.
    THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
    A man with a plan.
    You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
  9. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2003 6:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's another good choke if the person rolls you over and you can't get back to RNC.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  10. mikus is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    6/08/2003 12:51pm


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What's RNC?

    He carries a gun.
    THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
    A man with a plan.
    You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
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