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  1. mikus is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 11:51am


     Style: judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it differs on technique. From my admittedly very limited experience with the rea naked choke, 10 seconds sounds about right.

    My judo instructor demonstrated this rolling choke with the persons gi which he said can completely choke the person out by the time they roll over (2 seconds, tops) if you put ALL your weight onto it. All I saw in training was people tapping out by the time they rolled over, but obviously they weren't going for the knockout.

    He carries a gun.
    THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
    A man with a plan.
    You want some birth control? You can smoke a cigarette.
  2. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 5:55pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MMA,

    We used headlocks, chokes and locks of all sorts. The naked choke sometimes sunk in and sometimes not so sunk in really, I guess. We practiced preventing guys from sinking it. It is extremely hard to get out if it is sunk in and the guy has his hooks in, I agree. But if someone gets you in a perfectly sunk in rear naked then you have either really screwed up or you are outclassed anyway. Tap if it's competition. If it's not then keep fighting, your life is on the line. Sometimes dig your chin in and pull and tug at the right moment when they adjusted their grip, sometimes using even consistant pressure to weaken their grip. You have to tuck your chin in there asap and yea you turn toward their wrist but leaning toward their bicep can help you do that sometimes.

    I did tap sometimes but never within 3 seconds. I never went unconscious and I didn't give up easy, never within 3 seconds. I don't give up easy. Usually, if I couldn't get out using strikes and whatnot then I pulled and worked it until we were both sweaty enough that I could slip their hands apart. This won't work as well in a gi but if you are wearing shirts then people's arms get sweaty. I sweat a lot.. also I have hair on my arms and legs because I am Greek..

    It is harder to grapple with a hairy guy (most Brazilians are hairy) I think. Instead of slapping your hand down onto skin like some kind of suction cup you have hair interupting your grip. Hair moves and slides around. It's harder to keep hold of a hairy guy than a hairless wonder. Also, it's not long enough to pull really. It's body hair.

    Maybe my success in grappling can be attributed to sweat and hairiness. Heh.. I am also pretty wirey and limber though. I look kind of like a Gracie or.. Pete Sampras. I should walk into a dojo and tell them I am Helio Jr. and see what happens.

    Edited by - 9chambers on June 01 2003 18:06:38
  3. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 6:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If there is sweat, the advantage is the choker's. Once the choke is positioned, friction is no longer important to the choker, but it certainly is to the one who might attempt to break out. Indeed, a slippery arm will more easily slip under the chin. This is different with locks, and other chokes, of course.

    Totally wrong about the hair. Hair=greater friction. Most of the time, that equals better handles.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 6:17pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the choker's hands are sweaty then how is he going to keep the choke locked when you are pulling his arms apart? Also, sweaty hair/neck helps you get out once you've slipped your chin inside the choke and you are pushing your head out. Also a sweaty hand is easier to slip inside his arms or between his arm and your neck so you can get a grip, pull and then get your chin in there. You don't try to grip with your fingers but instead just work them in as one big hook. I don't agree that the choker has advantage when there is sweat. For one thing, it is harder to get the choke on a guy in the first place when he is slippery. I guess it just depends on what a guy is used to doing. I have always been sweaty so I don't know what it's like to not sweat. I guess I have no basis for comparisson. I've never not been hairy either. All I know is that most guys who aren't hairy tell me that I am harder to hold onto than hairless guys. Mostly they are talking about my arms though.. not the naked choke.

    * Dry hair = better friction maybe.
    * Sweaty hair = more slippery than just a wet skin.

    Have you ever tried to catch a greased pig at a rodeo? I haven't either. Ever heard the expression greased lightening? Ever oil wrestled with three girls in bikinis? .. Ok wait, that's a whole different conversation.

    Edited by - 9chambers on June 01 2003 18:21:18
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

    Administrator

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 7:46pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    9chambers:
    I actually took the time to read all your rhetoric. I really wished you could find the skill to compact your thoughts more concisely. You haven't said anything that counters what I said>

    1. I gave facts on a controlled group and why we did it. If you haven't taken statistics to understand that term please ask.

    2. People in Europe thought the world was flat for centuries because one expert stated it one day. I have heard this fact, we found out the actual time. What's your point in going on "expert's" testimonies. I have stated that I would not argue any point unless I knew the details of the "scientific" study.

    Let me put it to you simply....
    in control group A with 12 (not 10) athletes, each was asked to be put under three times not to exceed 10 seconds.

    They were all cold, no warm up.

    Each person was not allowed to tuck the head.

    Each person was not allowed to flex the neck (that was a hard one)

    Time would start when the choker indicated that the choke was locked.

    On the first choke you had to keep your hand up as long as you could. Once it dropped the time stopped.

    The average person lasted about 2.5 with the longest being approximately 4 seconds. The Median was between 2.3 and 2.5. The shortest was 2.1.

    Now if your arm dropped because you couldn't hold it up for more than 4 seconds, what do you think another 6 seconds is going to do? 10 to 20 seconds for complete unconsciousness? Guess again.

    All of you are coming on the premise that you are resisting. I'll give you that. What I'm trying to prevent is a percipitation of false facts.

    My declaration, simply put, is that once a rear naked is fully locked in you could ("could" being the operative word), kill somebody if you held it in there for more than 8 seconds.

    Declarations from Judoka and Jujitsu practioners, where there have been no deaths, are irrelevant. Judges are always there to break a hold if a competitor falls unconscious.

    so **** you
    **** you
    and
    **** you.....


    bwahaahahahaahahaa...

    All seriousness 9chambers, you have valid arguements but I was very specific in my point. If you would like to discuss these point directly make sure to follow the parameters I've set down. I have no possibility of arguing points of "experts" if I don't know their facts.

    Go away I'm talking to myself
  6. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 11:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also a sweaty hand is easier to slip inside his arms or between his arm and your neck so you can get a grip, pull and then get your chin in there.
    This is the only close-to-correct thing up there. Look, sweat affects both parties equally, so you can't say that the choker loses his grip while you get a better grip.

    You are misunderstanding a fundamental difference. I will try to make this clear...but I HATE describing techniques over the internet.

    In a rear naked choke, friction does not make SQUEEZING INWARDS ON ALL SIDES harder. There is nowhere to slip. In an armbar, there is quite clearly a direction to slip, AND you are pulling someone's limb AWAY from their core source of strength.

    I have done this many times on many different body types at various levels of sweat. It's physical principle.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 11:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    bradeissansoo: MY PUNCH IS UNSTOPPABLE!!! If it hit's you, THERE IS NO DEFENSE!!!!
    The first part is wrong, but the second part is completely correct.
  8. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    6/01/2003 11:59pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel,

    You are an experienced grappler so I will take your word for it. In your experience sweat helps the choker more than the defender. Maybe that is the case for most people. I can only go by what I've experienced. I was able to use sweat to my advantage while defending. Maybe there were other factors involved. ~ I haven't done a lot of research on sweat outside of my own personal experience. I'll have to look into it more. Maybe you are right.

    omega,

    >I really wished you could find the skill
    >to compact your thoughts more concisely.

    Dude, your post is longer than mine. Scroll back.

    >I gave facts on a controlled group and why
    >we did it. If you haven't taken statistics
    >to understand that term please ask.

    Scientists NEVER do an experiment on just one group and make a conclusion based on that. They test dozens of groups and examine the similarities. There is also a possibility that the power of suggestion influenced the outcome of the test in your particular group. Scientists do their studies on volunteers that have no bias. They don't ask a bunch of people who work for Pepsi to do a taste test for Coke vs Pepsi. Your class was a Judo class. Testing on them is testing on people who already have faith in your claims. No matter how hard they try to be objective, they can't.

    >What's your point in going on "expert's" testimonies.

    They wouldn't be "experts" if they weren't people who had been involved in Judo for years and years, seeing tons of tournaments and sparring matches. This is one of the pages I posted earlier:
    http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/apr70/dan.html

    Please read it very carefully because unlike your study, this is an actual scientific study performed by professionals. It has charts and pictures and the whole deal.

    >I have stated that I would not argue any
    >point unless I knew the details of
    >the "scientific" study.

    Then why didn't you just.. you know, read the pages I posted instead of ignoring them? The information on what kind of studies they were is right there in those articles. Duh.

    .. or why don't you do an actual scientific study yourself instead of just using one group of biased test subjects. Put a flier up for volunteers and pay them 10 bucks each. Do 10 groups of ten test subjects not allowing them to see the other people being tested or the previous results.

    >Let me put it to you simply.... in control
    >group A with 12 (not 10) athletes, each was
    >asked to be put under three times not to
    >exceed 10 seconds.

    In other words 12 Judo people who want the choke to work as well as possible so they can tell their friends that their art is the best were told that it would take less than 10 seconds for them to get knocked out and to give up at the very first signs of weakness. How is that scientific? That is borderline brainwashing.

    Also "control group" means a group of unbiased people never exposed to Judo before the experiment. That would be the scientific definition as it applies to you. Don't use the term if you don't know what it means.

    >Each person was not allowed to flex
    >the neck (that was a hard one)

    That simulates what situation? Choking someone who is already out cold?

    >On the first choke you had to keep your hand
    >up as long as you could. Once it dropped the
    >time stopped.

    That part sounds cool. Either do that or have them do the choke standing up. Maybe they could be up on their knees.

    >The average person lasted about 2.5 with
    >the longest being approximately 4 seconds.
    >The Median was between 2.3 and 2.5. The
    >shortest was 2.1.

    .. so 12 guys is representative of the entire population how? I think you need to test more than 12 guys to determine any sort of averages that are realistic.

    I also think that we were talking about the actual naked choke in a fight or competition setting before you got here ~ not a choke on a person already limp. Not flexing their necks kind of makes the test useless for anything and not applicable to this thread.

    >All of you are coming on the premise that you
    >are resisting. I'll give you that. What
    >I'm trying to prevent is a percipitation
    >of false facts.

    I think this is where we got our wires crossed. This thread was about resisting defenders and not limp people. Your study wouldn't apply to this argument even if it was accurate.

    >you could ("could" being the operative word),
    >kill somebody if you held it in there for
    >more than 8 seconds.

    I don't believe that. People have been brain dead for longer than that and survived.

    >make sure to follow the parameters I've set down.

    Why? You are the one that is having your own little personal conversation that has nothing to do with the parameters of the question this thread posed to the forum. Start your own thread and call it "choking limp people" .. or something like that. :P


    Edited by - 9chambers on June 02 2003 00:10:37
  9. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:06am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please read it very carefully because unlike your study, this is an actual scientific study performed by professionals. It has charts and pictures and the whole deal.
    Scientific studies are published in peer reviewed journals, not black belt magazine.
    [/quote]
  10. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    6/02/2003 12:11am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    so you didn't look at the page either then.. ?
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