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  1. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 5:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by airman kai

    Capoeira has ALWAYS been a game, more than anything. Second to that, it's a dance, and LASTLY, and most unimportantly (to most of it's practitioners), a way of fighting. The oft watched demo reel of "capokurt" is simply a well edited series of clips about him beating down krotty kids.

    Just trying to categorize capoeira as a fighting style is misguided, for obvious reasons.
    This is incorrect.

    Capoeira was indeed a fighting art first. There is has been much debate on how Capoeira has changed over the years.

    There were several forms of capoeira and from what was written about them they bare little resemblance to what is done today. Prime example Carioca, which died about in the mid 1900s. This form had NO music, which was common for many early forms of capoeira, and focused only on fighting. Also Capoeira then wasn't very structured. It was a few trick strung together. When pple started organizing it into schools they added different cultural things, such as the berimbau and songs.

    What Guerillo said about Capoeira Gangsters is true. They were notorious in Brazil, especally Rio, but even my last Mestre said that the capoeira then wasn't like what is done now.

    So when it comes to capoeira it started as a fighting art THEN became a cultural dance and game.

    And as for the demo reel. I voiced before that I don't think that guy really does Capoeria but mimics things he has seen.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  2. Happycrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 6:04pm


     Style: savate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bira Almeida says that capoeira and savate share chausson as part of their common roots. I'm glad you said that last bit, Lord Asia, because how he's playing (delivering armadas with the toe, etc), looks like very savateish to my eyes.

    I've got a buddy with BotW on dvd here, if it's the same guy, I'll look at it with a technical eye and see if I can spot anything.
  3. Obi.1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 6:27pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Guerrillero
    there are plenty of groups in Brazil that practice full contact capoeira, but these goddamn American Hippies are too chickenshit to wanna beat up on each other.

    Here's a link to a small clip from a group in Brazil called Muzenza.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX9KKzG4-0

    check it out.

    I posted that video in the very first post of this thread.
  4. Airman Kai is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 6:57pm


     Style: Out-Of-Shape MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Asia, although I'm inclined to believe you, I would have to argue that in it's developmental stages (at a time that it could have been called a fighting style), it was still a base of it's african roots.

    Boxing + Kicking = Kickboxing
    and
    Tribal Fighting + Subjugation/Slavery + (Brazilian Music?) = Capoeira

    So, capoeira didn't START as a fighting style, it's ancestor style was a fighting art, and capoeira was BORN as a dance/fight/game. This is all conjcture, btw, because I cannot find a source thats says "This is what happened..."
  5. Airman Kai is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 7:13pm


     Style: Out-Of-Shape MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, anything can be exaggerated/romanticsized.

    White americans firmly believe that people of african descent are dangerous (not OVERTLY, but in a way most caucasians don't realize they're doing). To most white americans, African heritage is almost a sign of untamed aggresion and violence. It's no stretch at all to say that Brazilians would would hold the same universal pregidous.

    (This is a generalization. I'm aware not every white person fears the black man, but the subconcious pregidous is present in almost all middle-to-upperclass families of non-african descent)

    So, in the same way that american "gangsters" are made to have more of an impact than they really do, the same would have been done for brazil's "notorious" capoeira gangsters.
  6. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 7:13pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by airman kai
    Asia, although I'm inclined to believe you, I would have to argue that in it's developmental stages (at a time that it could have been called a fighting style), it was still a base of it's african roots.
    How much or Capoeira that is directly African and what was Brazilian (native Brazilians were slaves too) is still a mystery and it doesn't look like its going to be solved anytime soon because many of Africa's arts have died out and there are still some unknowns not shared with foriegners.


    Tribal Fighting + Subjugation/Slavery + (Brazilian Music?) = Capoeira
    So, capoeira didn't START as a fighting style, it's ancestor style was a fighting art, and capoeira was BORN as a dance/fight/game.
    Incorrect. As stated before Capoeira Corioca never had music and it was still labeled as Capoiera. In Nestor Capoeira's books he wrote that the music was a later addition and it didn't come in to around 1830, by then the name Capoeira was already in use. One thing that supports this are paintings that date to the 1700s depict Capoeira but do not show a roda, instruments, etc that is associated with Capoeira now. In contrast Johann Moritz Rugendas painting in 1835 does show a roda and what appears to be pple chanting.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 7:19pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by airman kai
    Also, anything can be exaggerated/romanticsized.

    White americans firmly believe that people of african descent are dangerous (not OVERTLY, but in a way most caucasians don't realize they're doing). To most white americans, African heritage is almost a sign of untamed aggresion and violence. It's no stretch at all to say that Brazilians would would hold the same universal pregidous.

    (This is a generalization. I'm aware not every white person fears the black man, but the subconcious pregidous is present in almost all middle-to-upperclass families of non-african descent)
    Now, you are talking out your ass.

    I don't think it is the African heritage that is scary. It is the Gang Banger mentality that scared most white people.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 7:39pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by airman kai
    Also, anything can be exaggerated/romanticsized.
    True but even the historians of Capoeira point out what they feel is exaggerated and what is closer to fact.

    White americans firmly believe that people of african descent are dangerous (not OVERTLY, but in a way most caucasians don't realize they're doing).
    We are dangerous!!!! BREAK YO SELF, FOOL!!!:qright7:
    Why do you think Mace Windu was the BADMUTHAFUCKA of the Jedi Council and put the smck down on Palpatine.:glasses6:


    So, in the same way that american "gangsters" are made to have more of an impact than they really do, the same would have been done for brazil's "notorious" capoeira gangsters.
    Gangsters actually wreaked havoc. The "gansta" lifestyle is not the same as it started off as becuase it has entered pop culture but remember that from the 20's until, say about the 80's, being a GANGSTER did mean something whether it was the Italian or African American variety.

    Capoeiristas kicking and slashing each other would make an impact. They were the thugs and muscle for not just personal but also political gains.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. Obi.1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 10:28pm


     Style: Nothing currently

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, when you actually fight with capoeira you arn't really dancing around like a breakdancer as you do when you 'play' in the roda, if I understand correctly.

    The game of capoeira was used to disguise fight training, not to actualy be used in a fight. So when it comes down to it your not doing backflips and trying to windmill some dude in the face when you get down to a fight, you just kick them in the face, do a takedown, etc.

    The dancing disguised the TRAINING of fighting, it didn't actually take the place of fighting.

    Thats how I understand it at least, but I really could be completely wrong.
  10. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/11/2006 10:40pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Obi.1
    The game of capoeira was used to disguise fight training, not to actualy be used in a fight. So when it comes down to it your not doing backflips and trying to windmill some dude in the face when you get down to a fight, you just kick them in the face, do a takedown, etc.

    The dancing disguised the TRAINING of fighting, it didn't actually take the place of fighting.

    Thats how I understand it at least, but I really could be completely wrong.
    Unfortunately you are completely wrong. That is one of the big MA Myths. Not just for capoeira but it was used for Karate too. The dancing and music was not to disguise training it was to develop the culture of capoeira. You'd have to be a total moron as an overseer not to recognize what was going on. The fact that they outlawed the practice altogether means they weren't dumb.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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