RMA fact and fiction: marketing Systema, Russian Style, ROSS, my impressions

**Upyu** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 5:00pm

Originally Posted by wackamole

Think of the ross/kadochnikov/systema stuff like strength training.

Yup, but what kind of strength? Would you say?
(Serious question) ;)

**seeker of truth** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 5:10pm

I really liked your post and found it very informative. I've heard some good things about the Kadochnikov style, I heard that their disarming techniques on there videos are very good and highly effective.

**IzzyDaHedgehog** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 5:22pm

Originally Posted by Upyu

High level MA could mean BJJ done by Rickson, or Muay Thai done by a extra accomplished player.
I wasn't reffering to a "style".

And if you doubt what I'm takling about Luan on this board's already felt what our instructor can do, -> http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...hlight=Akuzawa

See the review by Luan (Who's crazy enough to have gone toe to toe with Asia in striking)

I guarantee 90% of people out there aren't making efficient use of their biomechanics when striking/grappling etc.

Anyone who doubts is welcome to come to Shinjuku Sports Center here in Tokyo and roll with myself and some of the other shooto kids that're starting to incorporate this stuff :icon_lol:

Sorry, but as soon as I see someone with "QiXingTangLangChangityChangChong" in their style field talking about "higher level" MA, I start to jump to conclusions. You must understand that the ratio of non-delusional Chinese MA practitioners to delusional ones is discouragingly low. Thus, at first glance, myself and others took your post to mean that Aikido, Tai Chi, etc. were "high level" MA whereas Muay Thai and Boxing were "lower level."

And I fail to see how the body mechanics used by a skilled martial arts would be simple enough to be described by an Orthodox cross, but then I don't posess those body mechanics. Why you would even use an obtuse metaphor like that instead of using plain simple English (or Russian) is beyond me.

**Upyu** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 6:18pm

Originally Posted by IzzyDaHedgehog

Sorry, but as soon as I see someone with "QiXingTangLangChangityChangChong" in their style field talking about "higher level" MA, I start to jump to conclusions. You must understand that the ratio of non-delusional Chinese MA practitioners to delusional ones is discouragingly low. Thus, at first glance, myself and others took your post to mean that Aikido, Tai Chi, etc. were "high level" MA whereas Muay Thai and Boxing were "lower level."

And I fail to see how the body mechanics used by a skilled martial arts would be simple enough to be described by an Orthodox cross, but then I don't posess those body mechanics. Why you would even use an obtuse metaphor like that instead of using plain simple English (or Russian) is beyond me.

It's an obtuse metaphor to be sure. But he's actually referring to a very physical skill that can only be done if you know how to connect the body properly.

And why didn't he use plain english?
Probably cuz he's russian? :5bouncy:

Anyways, to cut it down for you in plain english (and it still probably won't be very "plain"), you can divide the body into three general parts and three axis.

The upper:
Head to Sternum

Middle:
Sternum to just below the navel (th3 ub3r dantiEN taNDEN/diaphram area)

Lower
Diphram area to feet

Without going into detail, most people think of whole body strength as the type of strength garnered by doing freeweights, bench presses etc.

There's another kind of strength which involves working the body out in a fashion such that it creates the least amount of imbalance when it moves.

Basically you first work to solidy/connect the upper portion, then the middle, then the lower, then you work to connect all three of these parts. In the process of this you strengthen and balance your left and right axis (imagine a line running from shoulder to knee), which in turn strengthens the center axis (governed by the spine)

Most people don't even have a mastery over the upper portion, and generally lack of control over it is used by wrestlers in takedowns (when they grab the chest etc). Someone who's connected in the upper portion can feel like a sack of lead, and then feel even heavier once the upper, middle and lower portions of the body are connected. Once all three axis and the upper middle and lower portions of the body are connected, its pretty easy to stop single and double leg takedowns. Its not the outward technique thats important, but the inner aligment of the body.

If you draw the connections, they can look like an "orthodox cross". And since its an ingrained part of russian culture I can see why they use that analogy.

This isn't something "abstract", but rather a very physical skill that has to be taught.

Here's a test for people interested.

Stand against a wall, knees locked, feet together, heels touching wall.
Press the small of the back against the wall (but not leaning against the wall).

Touch the shoulderblades touching, shoulders dropped at the same time, elbows straight, fingers pointing up (should look like those ghey cma dudes, but you should feel an extreme amoutn of tension in the fingers and elbows)

You should feel a "cross of tension" in the sternum.

Keeping all these properties together (especially the small of the back touching the wall)

Raise one leg quickly without affecting the rest of the body.

Guaranteed 99% of people out there will be all over the place.

So what does this show?
That each and every time you try and move/strike/grapple whatever, you're throwing your body off balance.

So the goal at first is to move with minimal effect to the bodies balance.

There are certain exercises you can do to work the body in this fashion, and they are physically excruciating, especially for people that work out with weights.

The results of this?
In an mma context, you appear to kick/strike in a more penetrating fashion with less effort (and which takes away your opponents base each and every time, as Luan noted), tackles of all kinds done by wrestlers of your same weight stop working against you, you're more stable and can even strike someone with a fair amount of damage from the "bottom" of a mount ;) Overall your opponent "feels" you are much stronger than your actual build/weight

But that's only the first stage.

Like I said, this stuff needs to be felt to be believed.
I had only about 5 months college judo about 3 years ago(ground exp since then), but I was able to walk into Rickson's Axis BJJ school here and not only not tapout, but earn myself a couple of tapouts from their blues and even one purple, so I know this stuff works ;)
Not to mention that I've converted all of the Shooto guys I workout with here at the Shinjuku Sports center. :5bouncy:

Anyone interested feel free to PM me.

**Upyu** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 6:23pm

Originally Posted by IzzyDaHedgehog

with "QiXingTangLangChangityChangChong" in their style field talking about "higher level" MA

I've been trying to change my "style" field forever... trying again.:toothy6:

**mrblackmagic** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 6:35pm

Originally Posted by IzzyDaHedgehog

So "high level" in the same way COBOL is high level...

Crappy, outdated, and slow, but still in widespread use because people are too lazy to switch :-)

Stop me if I get too dorky.

More so because they have secret techniques that terrify the uneducated.

Oh, you already said that. I'm going to go get another burger.

**wackamole** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 6:39pm

Upyu,
I think i misspoke a little bit. When I thought about it more, it's more like strengthening a feeling. That's what I think that the exercises do...at least that's what I do with the exercises you sent me.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am referring to the exercises which Upyu and his school use to build the whole body connection.

**Upyu** · Posted On: 7/04/2006 7:27pm

Originally Posted by wackamole

Upyu,
I think i misspoke a little bit. When I thought about it more, it's more like strengthening a feeling. That's what I think that the exercises do...at least that's what I do with the exercises you sent me.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am referring to the exercises which Upyu and his school use to build the whole body connection.

Part of it might be that, but then most would think I'm talking about some mystical babble cock.
You're still exercising the muscles in a certain manner which cause them to be developed in a way different from how they'd be developed if you used freeweights. Namely they're developed in a way that's solely devoted to stabilizing the body, as opposed to simply moving heavy objects (like in freeweights).
Sounds like a "well duh" concept, but I'm pretty sure most people don't know how to develop their bodies in this manner.