Also credit history is so totally irrelevant to anything- unless your discussing actual credit fraud that it's silly to bring it up and makes your points less impactful
Originally Posted by Name321
Dude you sound like a Kool-aid Drinker. Should we talk about your blatant contradictions of yourself?
and BTW - stop screwing with the fonts
Last edited by Hidama; 4/27/2007 5:41pm at .
Names From the Past
Wow, there is a lot of history unfolded here ...
Jean, Mike, Josh - wonder who else is going to come out of the woodwork.
Jean, you dropped this one, and I had to bite.
Started a little earlier than you in that club, Ashley Murffin was also still an active black belt at the time, Mike Epp as he himself stated left the club shortly after I joined ( like within the year ), the only other belts of note were junior ranked belts that I recall, though there were a few others like Vince who were reasonably well into the belt progression.
I don't believe that randy neelin, mike epp, bob villa, have been active for a long while..there are a couple others I have in mind but their names escape me presently
That said, hrm. Where to begin.
I am unsure exactly what the purpose and point of this whole thread is about, other than it seems more friction remains swirling about between the factions that have encountered Jaques and trained under him.
Someplace now going back near 17-20 years ago I think Mike Epp departed - and gave publicly his reasons why, I understood them then and I do now, the BS aside he also noted many of the current students were not up for actual "martial training" and were looking for a new flavour or aerobic excercise, among other observations - that one does ring true, most people I have met over the years don't want to train for real, and most who try it don't last long doing it.
To the fellow throwing the bash at Josh, I think his lack of punctuation and paragraphs may have confused you - Jaques never did speak ill of Mike Epp, but he never did recover or lower his animosity toward Jean since their parting of ways. Josh was actually talking about two different individuals, and did not contradict himself.
Actually I was actively training with him at the time and doing RSAD stuff outside the club - and was fully aware of the cause and effect of that plunge into the canal - his going deaf added another item to tease him about his age.
Did he ever tell you the story about how he dove into the Ottawa River to save the lives of 2 young boaters when he was working at the Locks and how he lost his hearing as a result?
Anyhoo back to topic I guess,
Mike is right 20 years ago Jaques was all about fast brutal response, a lot of forcefull impact, he did evolve somewhat or at least what he taught evolved somewhat to encompass balance and control techinces, pressure points, locks etc - all fairly common in Jitsu, though from the other forms I have encountered I do still favour what I learned under Jaques.
That said, true form or not, bastardised or not - to continue learning you encorporate what you learn that is new, discard what does not fit and evolve your own "form" of martial arts, moreso if you cross train through disparate styles.
Somplace in there someone indicated to their knowledge I have not been active for some time, true if you are referencing the Golden Dragon, Kenpo Jitsue, Kysushu Ryu and whatever other names evolved over the years with Jaques, but I am still active, no longer 5 nights a week, but still a coule times a week I can be found practicing in the ROKC club in Osgoode. When people ask me what style I am trained in, I am stuck for an answer during my time with Jaque it has been called at least three different names, under at least two if not three different federations - since I started with "Kenpo Jitsu" as the name of the style that remains my answer.
Jaques was prone to embeleshment, however half the things he has said that I didn't believe have been verified by others, in the end, i don't care all that much, I learned a fair bit from him, I respect him, I have not yet found a style or school that I have enjoyed as much as I enjoyed training with him, and I think that says something.
Any of you from the past care to review more or catch up face to face let me know.
Josh, hope the career is going well, haven't seen you since the funeral and my contact info has changed, but next time you are in Ottawa if you are up for it give me a shout.
Mike - same offer, would love to pursue a side chat with you and find out what path you have walked since that last chat in the dojo when you passed me your syllabus, insights and commentary - are you still training ?
Enough for now, time to go deal with the drive home, pick up the kids etc. etc.
I am going to have to check out this board further soon.
WOW! Sounds like a whole lotta stuff is going on in Halifax that's suspect! From the reading it sounds like there really isn't much to argue about on the point of Jack. Everyone who seemes to have known him says the same things. Lots of embellishment but undisputedley great martial artist, lots of talent and seems to be a nice guy. It just dawned on me though that nobody has really posted anything on the fact that "Master Zinck" now heads Jacks system and got tested and promoted to his master level by a few people who were, and I assume still are unless they got promoted by their yellow belt students, junior to the master! How in the name of anything holy in martial arts is this possible? I don't claim to be an expert, I'm only thinking that I've never heard of anything like this in all my life! Even in the movies!
How is it possible for someone to be tested in things the examiners don't yet understand? (I think someone already asked this but just the same) Further, is it really possible to test someone in Jujitsu for over 8 hours and believe that the testing is complete even though they couldn't do any weight bearing throws? It is jujitsu right? Not fingerlock-kwon-do? I couldn't quite tell from the magical videos. I know of instructors who would immediately fail you on a simple shodan test if you happen to hurt yourself during it as simply put you could not complete the requirements of testing. I'm pretty sure you have to win two of three matches just to qualify for a judo shodan, lord knows what a BJJ shodan involves. Are there really places that let you do "what you feel up to" and still promote? The thing about demonstrating the master's terrifying punch sounds pretty weird man. Doesn't this guy also have a 2nd degree black belt in karate? Ever get hit by a boxer? likely feels the same or worse if he took the gloves off, but that doesn't qualify them as martial artist. Anyone can hit hard in a demonstration dude, and a five year old can break someones finger. Where's the magic I ask?:icon_lol:
It just seems like no one has asked the question of how this guy could be a Master or commented on it? I' d love to know what the people who actually trained with jack would say. Like one post said, glad the kids approved. Seems just WRONG that a guy could go about accepting a grading like this and taking it seriously enough to call himself master. Shouldn't he respect his Master and keep training at the rank his master last gave him? Why the need for this most interesting grading arrangement? What an example for the kids! Think something like this could happen in Japan? Can someone please shed some light on this? For the sake of the children! :icon_lol: Sounds like an investigation from the martial arts :car8: is needed!
Anyway this is too funny to ponder longer gotta go!
I trained under Jack for about a decade, moved out of town and had two kids which cut into my ability to continue to train under him. I currently hold a black belt and have no desire to be ranked anything else inspite of having Jack insinuate I should have gone through a grading, and offers by other higher level instructors to rank me up.
Originally Posted by sakfanatic
Rank to me means little, skill and active practice means more, I have met several 3rd, 4rth, 5th degree ranked people who know a lot, but cannot do what a fresh young first degree can. As such I respect their knowlege, but more I admire the ability to utilize it.
All that said, how can something like this come to be, for what it is worth, as the most senior ranked student studying under Jack, or with Jack, and being someone who developed apparently a pretty active relationship with him, it makes sense to me that his daughter / family chose to pass on the "right" to Frank to hold the title "Master" of the system.
Think of it like politics in a sense, where say a given politician is given an honourary degree by some school about somehting they know little about.
Traditionally with Jack you could rank up to two belts below your current rank, so a first degree could rank up to blue, to rank a student up to brown or black, you had to have a 2nd or 3rd degree attend and approve the grading.
With the master dead, who can grade anyone up from their current rank?
The family passing on the rights to the system and the title of master to Frank makes sense to me as no one in his ( Jack's ) family actively took part in training during my time with him, so for the above mentioned reasons passing the torch makes sense to enable the training to continue.
As to the actual rank or progress, consider usually as you gain rank you also gain insight along the way, when you begin actively instructing others you begin to look are more variables than you did previously, you notice more about position, body size, weight, height, positioning etc, usually when trying to figure out why a student is having difficulty with a particular technique.
Without the ability to increase rank with the passing of the master, eventually you would have a first degree who ought to be ranked much higher, how would you recognize or reward that ?
I have only met Frank at Jack's funeral, he seemed to me to be an honest sincere fellow who obviously had developed enough of a relationship with Jack and his family to warrant some respect by default, he did after all deliver Jack's eulogy.
With the passing or retirement of the head of a system traditionaly it would pass to their eldest son or most advanced or favoured student - in this case, it would seem that was Frank at the time of Jack's death.
As to how strange that all is, no stranger than someone studying martial arts for a bunch of years, coming up with their own philosphy, branding their concept and ideals as a new thing like Can-Ryu and declaring themselves 10th degree in that system.
When there is only one 10th in any system ( or in this case 7th ), and no one at 5th - 9th, what do you do when the master dies ...
In this case the family chose the favoured / most advanced student currently practicing to pass the torch to.
I can't come up with a better idea of how to handle it myself.
( minor edit for clarity )
Last edited by RNeelin; 5/17/2007 11:50am at .
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO