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  1. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 9:43pm


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Question for the other Aikidoka

    In all of the Aikido dojos I've trained at they've all been run similarly. The Sensei demonstrates a technique in reference to a certain attack and then everyone in the class works on that together. After about ten to fifteen minutes the teacher stops the class and then does another technique and the cycle repeats for the rest of the class.

    This is in stark contrast to the Judo clubs I've trained at. There everything was very individually focused. You would work on a throw that you know and your partner would work on a throw that they know and wouldn't usually be the same technique. Of course, the teacher would come around and correct you and give pointers and when you were ready would teach you a new throw.

    I always felt that the Judo way of training was more efficient as it allows you to focus your training and work on the basics and becomnig somewhat proficient before moving on to harder techniques. Whereas in Aikido you will probably be working on different techniques every class which I feel is very inefficient as it overwhelms the student and doesn't really allow for them to have a firm grasp of the basics.

    My question is, how are your classes organized? I've heard Saito say that he stresses the basics for a very long time. Is this true for all schools with an Iwama foundation. Do the Shodokan schools follow a more Judo-like approach because of Tomiki's background? The Yoshinkan techniques are organized into Katas correct? Are there beginners Katas that you learn first before moving on?
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 9:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I did Aikido it was half and half. Half class technique demo othe half working with a partner on your next belts ciriculum.

    And in Yoshinkan the only kata's I did were weapon ones, sword, jo and knife
  3. Mr. Jones is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 10:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In Tomiki style Aikido it's more Judo like you said earlier. The new student works on the first 5 techniques no matter what the other students are working on.

    In Iwama you work on the basics over and over to develop powerful techniques. That's why when someone like a sankyu goes to an Aikkikai dojo they might think they're a black belt. A student tried to explain to me why the Aikkikai thought he was a black belt and it just confused me.
  4. pazman is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 12:50am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A typical class at my dojo is broken into three parts. First, there are drills and various exercises which we do in every class, for example, gonozen kazushi. These are considered the basics. Next, is that day's chosen set of kata, which are slowly worked into randori drills. The last part of class is straight randori and students can work at their own pace and on technques of their own choice, just like a typical judo class.

    I have been to an aikikai style class, it was run as the original poster stated. Wasn't so fun in my opinion.
  5. GRAB MY WRIST is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 1:28am


     Style: Jabs & Cross Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First third of the class = kihon waza (Basic / kata) technique (3 techniques)

    Second third = like judo uchi-komi drill, using what we learn that night.

    Last third = Jiyu-waza (Free-sparring)

    GMW

    P/S Pazman, interesting to know that there are Shodokan school in China.
  6. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 4:04am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Usual classes are 2 and a half hours long.

    The first hour is for weapons practice; it can be from solo training (suburi/kata) or paired exercises: formalized weapons drills or paired kata performed, depending the relative skills, from step by step (i move, then you move...) to full speed-full force (kiaaaargh!!!1, whack, wack, whack.... oh ****, my fingers...).

    The sensei demonstrates a pair of times the technique/drill and then everybody works.

    If there are noobs who are unable to perform the techniques, they are grouped apart and put under an advanced student supervision who teaches them the "how do swing piece of wood".

    Second and a half hour is for unarmed techniques. The trainees are distributed by grades and a more advanced student is assigned to teach and train with every group because the instructor can't be everywhere an he also wants to train. Every group trains the curriculum techniques of his next grading, and the techniques are demonstrated by the assigned "instructor" who also trains with his group. If any doubt arises about the technique feel free to ask sensei.

    Sometimes classes are less formalized, we don't follow the curriculum so everybody trains the same techniques regardeless his grade. The sensei demonstrates the tecnique and everybody works the same technique. In these cases people is encouraged to work with partners with more experience.

    Saturdays classes, are even less formalized and high kyu/dan grade oriented (but open to everybody, that's not a BB club) so we have more available mat surface per skirt and we can do randori and jiju waza without worrying a lot about clashing with other people but more usually saturdays are about compensating us for the time we spent as assistant instructors with more personalized instruction and fine tuning the techniques.

    After saturday's class is oficially ended, and if there are still some ki, t3h gr4pple begins...
    Last edited by DCS; 6/30/2006 5:01am at .
  7. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 7:40am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tipically we would all line up and the sensei would throw each of us with todays technique. Then we would go down the line with each member of the dojo (from higest belt to lowest) would throw each member with the same throw the sensei demoed as he corrected us. After this we would pair off and work on this throw for a while. Then we would work on grading materials or jo kata. Near the end of class there would be some randori. After class free sparing.
  8. Fearless Ukemi is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 8:28am


     Style: JJ of the B variety

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We have classes much like Rainy and Fiction described. Most of the time they are like Rainy's. If the class has a lot of people, we do the lines like Fiction described. Sometime if the class is small we form a circle instead of a line. We also have classes that are entirely randori. The randori classes are the most fun IMO.
  9. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 11:25am


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good post.

    The Yoshinkan techniques are organized into Katas correct?
    I'm not too sure about Katas. You mean patterns like you would find in taekwondo or Karate?

    The only thing I've done so far resembeling a Kata has been the after class excersise one and two (Which is basically one of the first two techniques your taught, and a difficult one at that) and Bokken and jo excersises.

    We have a small (Yoshinkan) dojo and our numbers attending the class fluxuate quite a bit. We've had 15 people on the mat one class and 2 the next. Makes having a specific schedule difficult.
    Often monday and wednesdays one hour classes we do warm ups, explore a new technique and finish with a randori. Saturday we warm up, usualyl spend the class training for what we require for the next belt and then finish with a randori.

    I can't speak for judo having never did it though I'm very lucky. My partner has been doing judo for about 40 years+ , no ****. Amazing shape. I couldn't take him to the ground if I had a brick and he was drunk. This REALLY helps my training, if something isnt working he tells me.


    I always felt that the Judo way of training was more efficient as it allows you to focus your training and work on the basics and becomnig somewhat proficient before moving on to harder techniques. Whereas in Aikido you will probably be working on different techniques every class which I feel is very inefficient as it overwhelms the student and doesn't really allow for them to have a firm grasp of the basics.
    At a guess, Aikido is a lot slower and requires more You grab my wrist and I'm going to attack you like this because there are A LOT of different attacks you need to practice against and commit to muscle memory. Need to be able to apply a technique to standing, sitting, someone doing it from the front, someone doing it from behind you. Sometimes grabing your wrist, sometimes striking you, sometimes grabbing your elbow or shoulder. Hundreds of applications when you really start to think about it.

    Because of the time aikido takes to really become proficient, doing the same technique over and over and over until your very good at JUST that technique becore moving on is going to give you the ability to defend yourself against that ONE attack which ate up your last year of training. Not practical.

    Anything you learn in aikido will always find you comming back to the basics one way or another. You learn a bit, then come back to the basics, you learna bit more then come back to the basics.
    Last edited by vigilus; 6/30/2006 11:40am at .
  10. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/30/2006 1:10pm


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks everyone for the responses! If anyone has experience in training in different methods could you elaborate on which you felt to be the more efficient method?

    I'm not too sure about Katas. You mean patterns like you would find in taekwondo or Karate?
    I meant like how I understand Daito-Ryu to be. They have certain "series" of techniques which I thought the Yoshinkan was organized like (Ikkajo series, Nikkajo series, etc.). In this method certain attacks and defenses are organized in a set way into Katas. Is this the way the Yoshinkan does things? Kind of like Judo's Gokyo no Waza (http://judoinfo.com/gokyo1.htm).

    At a guess, Aikido is a lot slower and requires more You grab my wrist and I'm going to attack you like this because there are A LOT of different attacks you need to practice against and commit to muscle memory. Need to be able to apply a technique to standing, sitting, someone doing it from the front, someone doing it from behind you. Sometimes grabing your wrist, sometimes striking you, sometimes grabbing your elbow or shoulder. Hundreds of applications when you really start to think about it.

    Because of the time aikido takes to really become proficient, doing the same technique over and over and over until your very good at JUST that technique becore moving on is going to give you the ability to defend yourself against that ONE attack which ate up your last year of training. Not practical.

    Anything you learn in aikido will always find you comming back to the basics one way or another. You learn a bit, then come back to the basics, you learna bit more then come back to the basics.
    I understand your point. The problem I see with this is that because you're switching techniques and attacks all the time it's difficult for people to really grasp the basics.

    I found something that Saito said in the second friendship demo very interesting. He said that he used to get yelled at by Ueshiba for doing "Ki-flow" techniques before he was ready. I take this to mean that Ueshiba didn't want people doing all the fancy movement stuff before they had grasped the essential basics where someone grabs you tightly and you have to perform the technique. Which then of course Saito goes on to say that he always makes sure people can do the basics even when gripped tightly before moving on to more flowing techniques.

    This is much different than the classes I've always seen. For instance we take Shiho-nage as an example. We start off with a basic Katatetori (same side) grab and teach the beginner Shiho-nage and after they work on it for 10-15 minutes they begin to understand the very rudimentary aspect of it. Then all of a sudden we begin doing this same technique but instead from a grab we switch to Yokomenuchi as an attack. This attack is much more complicated to deal with. Now the beginner has to deal with the difficult footwork, the task of off-balancing the attacker, and applying the technique.

    I think this is overload and inefficient for the beginner who instead of working on the Yokomenuchi attack could go back to some sort of grabbing technique and defense which is less complicated.
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