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  1. DdlR is offline
    DdlR's Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:24pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G8
    but that's some kind of wacky drill, right? I mean, it's not actually supposed to be a demonstration of effectiveness ... is it? it reminds me of the crappy fight choreography of the old "Kung Fu" tv show, where five cowboys would take turns attacking David Carradine in slow motion.
    Yes, it's a drill.
  2. kiai_killer is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:25pm

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     Style: Submission Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can clearly hear the guy at the beginning say something like "walk in on him and attack him or whatever". This video is touted on their site as being a clip of "Mikhail striking multiple attackers!". If that was for real he would have been finished. Luckily the 'attackers' were really just systema devotees engaging in the worship of their leader. The fact that they fly backwards and crumple is not due to the power of their master; it's because they have been pre-conditioned to respond to his strikes in that manner.
    Straight punches make you go blind. More damage is done to a criminals nervous system when they are struck. Strikes that make you stronger. All this and more systema douchebaggery:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eak-m2iwI7Q

    NEW BONUS REEL, feat RobG at it again! lol:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ
  3. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:30pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    right ... I mean, obviously, those guys are sleepwalking/LARPing. if it's a drill, then, what's it supposed to teach? how to defend against hooligans at a Special Olympics riot?
  4. kiai_killer is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:33pm

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     Style: Submission Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A good example of this pre-conditioned response was posted by Kungfoolss earlier in this thread: http://www.russianmartialart.com/cat...%20strikes.wmv

    It clearly shows the guy recoil away from Rybako - but what struck him? Surely not a chi blast?!?
    Straight punches make you go blind. More damage is done to a criminals nervous system when they are struck. Strikes that make you stronger. All this and more systema douchebaggery:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eak-m2iwI7Q

    NEW BONUS REEL, feat RobG at it again! lol:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ
  5. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:44pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiai_killer
    A good example of this pre-conditioned response was posted by Kungfoolss earlier in this thread: http://www.russianmartialart.com/cat...%20strikes.wmv

    It clearly shows the guy recoil away from Rybako - but what struck him? Surely not a chi blast?!?

    !!

    wtf? was that also a "drill"?
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:48pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Systema was developed, in large part, as a way to safely but realistically practice the techniques that are "too dangerous for competitions", as described above. It employs a very unusual pedagogy and a large number of drills and exercises that are difficult to understand unless you have seen (and preferably practiced) them in context. IMO the Systema method offers an excellent way for experienced martial artists of any background to work outside the box of their previous training.

    IMO ... the key phrase. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

    Your opinion != adequate documentation.


    Regardless, there is absolutely no reason why "many improvised sparring exercises, including Russian-style boxing and full-resistence grappling" cannot be filmed more often and shown to the critics. But that isn't really happening. Systema seems to prefer to provide consistent documentation their methods are ... offbeat.


    Also, there is also absolutely no reason why "many improvised sparring exercises, including Russian-style boxing and full-resistence grappling" cannot be removed from the context of whatever Systema's idea of "complete" Systema is and honed to a fine sheen to uncover deficiencies and possible demonstratable strengths within its signature by use of the many public venues already available. But that isn't really happening, either... or, is it?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:49pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G8
    right ... I mean, obviously, those guys are sleepwalking/LARPing. if it's a drill, then, what's it supposed to teach? how to defend against hooligans at a Special Olympics riot?
    :)

    First thing to understand is that Systema includes a HUGE range of drills, mostly improvised rather than pre-set; these drills, or exercises, are used to replace the kata and set drills found in many other styes. The purpose of a given drill is often not obvious unless you see it in context.

    Because we only have this excerpt as context, we can only guess at the purpose of this exercise. Based on what I've seen of similar exercises, though, I think it's basic training in defending against multiple attackers (on behalf of the defender) and in rolling with punches (on behalf of the "attackers").

    This sort of spontaneous but slow-motion, compliant drill is used as a way to prepare Systema students for the chaotic nature of real combat. The drills get harder and faster as the student develops the skill to safely deal with more realistic speed and force.
  8. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:56pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    :)
    This sort of spontaneous but slow-motion, compliant drill is used as a way to prepare Systema students for the chaotic nature of real combat. The drills get harder and faster as the student develops the skill to safely deal with more realistic speed and force.
    is there video of the hard-and-fast drilling, then? does it also involve compliance?
  9. EricH is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 3:58pm


     Style: systema/RMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G8
    but that's some kind of wacky drill, right? I mean, it's not actually supposed to be a demonstration of effectiveness ... is it? it reminds me of the crappy fight choreography of the old "Kung Fu" tv show, where five cowboys would take turns attacking David Carradine in slow motion.
    It is a wacky drill. They are supposed to try to touch him (keeps them within range) and avoid the hits. It is not supposed to be any kind of real life example.

    To address some of Tom's issues on the point of faith. Video is no more convincing to me than words, words, words. The only way to test the measure of a martial art is to experience it.

    Consistantly on the internet you see detractors with no experience in systema debating its merits with supporters who have experienced systema.

    detractors - no experience
    supporters - experience

    It looks funny, sure!

    But as has been pointed out many experienced people from many styles have found systema's training methodologies to be valuable.

    Tom, if you can't bring yourself to walk down the street and check it out yourself then that is your problem. There is no video that is going to convince you of its merits without question.

    Nothing is hidden by the way. I don't know where you are getting that. There are videos posted on vasiliev's website, and all over the internet. Nobody is hiding anything. The doors are open. Come check it out and inform yourself through experience...

    or continure do whatever you are doing now.

    I don't think that there is anything more to be said here.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2006 4:09pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tom,

    I actually feel like we're getting somewhere now ...

    You're quite right that my opinion doesn't count as adequate documentation and I hope I haven't given the impression that it does.

    As I've pointed out before (and even that phrase is becoming a bit worn out in this discussion), there have been numerous links to clips that demonstrate Systema boxing, grappling, etc. Hazarding a guess as to why these aren't filmed more often, I think it may be that most of the Systema people who upload their training clips, etc to the web are trying to demonstrate their training process, which is based on the "offbeat" exercises you referred to.

    Once again, the boxing and grappling exercises are just that, exercises within a wide-ranging syllabus, not the final product or "ultimate goal" of Systema training.

    If I absolutely have to then I'll trawl back and dig some of these clips out again, but going by past experience, it still won't make much difference. The trolls will ignore this evidence or sift through it to find moments that they can't relate to; the more serious skeptics will either ignore it or respond with "yeah, that was OK, but what about the psychic knock out BS".

    I've already addressed the reasons why I don't think it's likely that Systema practitioners will enter MMA contests, which have little to do with the method itself and much more to do with their motivations for choosing Systema over a MMA style to begin with.

    Systema people have participated in two Bullshido throwdowns that I'm aware of, one in England and the recent throwdown in Canada. Maybe this will happen more often as the art spreads and becomes better established. Either way, yet again, it will only ever be a demonstration of "Systema training modified for relatively safe sport", not the whole art.

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