Thread: Final Report: Systema-
9/23/2006 10:38pm, #611Originally Posted by TheWarriorman
According to your understanding of martial arts, a student should be able to equal his teacher's skill within how many months?
How many before he surpasses him? Seems strange that you would expect a kid to equal the skill level of a Special Op like that.
As for being a 'kid,' this was an adult with a wife and child. Your constant reference to this is obviously a cheap tactic in obfuscation. Nobodies buying that lie.
Who's assimilated Gracie's skills after a few months of training with him?
Who mastered him not long after that?... Oops, sorry that question was easy. The answer's Matt Hughes, and he didn't even need to train with him to do it.
Again, for your next paragraph, you reprise this apparent lack of comprehension at the concept of the teacher's skills greatly surpassing that of the people who sit on the couch and watch videos. That's what's pretty shocking, in my view.
"This film offers an incredible variety of easy-to-learn, quick-to-apply, precise and devastating tactics. Get instruction on defense from knife and stick strikes by one or more opponents; gun threats from various distances; and warding off 2 attackers at once -while sitting on a chair!"
You see the funny thing is, Vlad is able to convey these fundamentals via video to the average guy to protect themselves from armed multiple attackers, yet you would have us naively believing one of his dead instructor not only lacked this ability but was seemingly incompetent as well. What's wrong with this picture?
Mocking something endlessly (and pretty repetitively, too) and not having the guts to step up and prove your ridicule is warranted when the chance is offered? That's serious Keyboard Strength territory right there.
Finally, your lack of comprehension of written English astonishes me yet again.
How you can derive a challenge from a statement denoting how I understand your reasons for *refusing a challenge* (a little tongue-in-cheek, I must admit - and clarify, since apparently reading isn't your strong suit - but I didn't like your blatant disregard for civility, so we probably got off on the wrong foot... apologies to all other decent readers on this one) is beyond me, but further serves to illustrate my point.
It's okay to disagree, Kungfoolss, but take a hint from OnceLost. The man has been able to have a highly interesting discussion with those who favor Systema and myself before your return. Why doesn't this appear to be possible with you?Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
9/23/2006 10:57pm, #612Originally Posted by kiai_killer
-16-years of martial arts experience with instructor certification in 3 different fighting systems not including systema.
-Couple with 7 years in Personal Protection field as a bouncer and Security Specialist ( vague).
So in a sense this dead guy accumulated 23-years in fighting application and experience. And yet, with all this experience touted on his site, systema seminars hosted by the deceased, doofus here is insisting Arkadiy was some neophyte that didn't know what the hell he was doing. It's pretty amazing the lengths some folks will go to spin such transparent lies just to confuse the issue. Sad.Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
9/23/2006 11:45pm, #613
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
Kungfoolss, it's fun to see when how easily you'll resort to insults when you feel inferior. Clearly, that is a tell-tale sign to high-schoolers and up that something (or someone?) has gotten under your skin ("butt cousins"? "warriorwoman"? - wow, that's what? 6th-grade worthy?). I'm sorry I originally mistook you for someone a little older...
You asked me a question ("Where did I state that?") in response to a QUESTION I asked (a question you even QUOTED immediately above!!). If that doesn't exemplify a stultifying lack of understanding written English, I don't know what does!
Given that I haven't defended Systema and rather asked questions of the people already engaged in debate, it's funny that you would opt to lump me in with the Systema lovers you hate so much. What is it, "us vs them"? That's mature.
As I've stated in another post (that you've conveniently ignored - but then again, I wouldn't expect anything less from you), the guy who died was in his 20s. If that doesn't make him a kid, well, ... oh, that's right, I guess it doesn't make him one to you. My bad. But when I implied that the various factors of a real-life crisis like that are not quantifiable by armchair martial artists after the fact, you responded with the oh-so-clever "well, Vlad does it [disarm multiple opponents] in his videos". That's what prompted me to explain that the 2o-some-year-old and the veteran Special Op may have a different skill level, especially considering one (guess which) was trained under a civilian setting. But don't worry; those who know you better than I around here are surely not expecting you to grasp all that "complicated stuff".
Am I retarded or do I actually believe what I said that prompted you to ask this? Nope I'm not retarded, I do fully believe that Matt Hughes beat Royce Gracie in humiliating fashion. I ordered it on Pay-Per-View and had popcorn while I made some dough off the bet.
I love that you go to great length to explain concepts (skill level -vs- conceptual aspects) and that you fail to grasp how those exact concepts clearly explain why, despite Vasiliev being able to do certain things on video, a 20-some-years-old kid might not.
For what's it worth, while it has little value to me as a bystander in this discussion, I also find hilarious the notion that a proponent of BJJ would argue about competence in the case of a group murder. I'd love to see you grapple an attacker to the ground while his friends wait around with their guns and/or knives in their pocket as you submit him.
"Online duels"?? What are you, sixtee... oops. Answered myself already. But I do think that you owe it to yourself, when you're a little older, to seek out the things that test you. Despite BJJ likely being entirely sufficient for your training goals, I doubt you could come out of an experience with another teacher any dumber. Really, I doubt it. Therefore, that's why I originally asked if any of the detractors had trained with Vasiliev, not because I was necessarily suggesting it, mind you, but because I was curious to hear their observations. Of course, lo and behold, you misunderstood what I wrote. Hmm... am I alone in sensing a pattern?
It's evident one more time when you attribute words to me: "Well, I can't prove systema isn't Bullshido, so you have to fight one of their instructors." It's funny, in that I never claimed Systema was or wasn't "bullshido". In fact, I did ask for others' opinions, specifically if anyone who thought it was "bullshido" had a chance to train with the head dude and what their impressions were or if this was solely based on impressions. But the kicker here is how does that relate to your second statement? "It's only fair for me to point out not a single systema cultist has made their way to the nearest Bjj or Matt Thornton school." I believe the simplest answer would be to tell you "Probably because not one of them claimed that BJJ was bullshido." Is that correlation lost on you somehow?
Hmm, thanks to you my post count just went up. I hope I'm not gonna lose my ability to read as time goes on...
9/25/2006 8:55am, #614
I took a few days away from the forums, so I have a couple of posts to respond to different things. I’m not that knowledgeable about forum etiquette, but posting several times in a row should be nothing in light of some of the conversations here…
In both cases, what is shown is not Ryabko demonstrating a counter-attack but rather the student practicing to be able to collapse his body away from a counter-attack.
This is strictly my opinion, but a student is going to get hurt by attacking only to withdraw from a counterattack and ceding the advantage. Let me anticipate a potential argument - Maybe it’s a feint, designed to draw the other person into an attack so the systema student can respond defensively. If that it the case, why are the systema students, who should be learning to “collapse” their bodies (which I assume means retreat safely from the counter attack), sliding to the floor? Not exactly what I would consider a tactical withdrawal.
I can understand a student practicing to anticipate and deal with counter-attacks, but I'm baffled by the "collapsing the body away."
9/25/2006 9:35am, #615Vasiliev's wealth of experience in dealing with group muggings at gun- and knifepoint.Regarding videos of Vasiliev's capacity to disarm multiple attackers surrounding him, I don't think you can compare the actions of a man who has a lifetime of active duty in the Special Operations Unit …
The police department I was with required officers to qualify with their firearms twice every year and take an 8 hour refresher once per year. Keep in mind that these are normal street officers – at least some of them - who only fire their weapon three days a year; the two days they qualify and on their refresher course. Now this is FIREARMS, not hand-to-hand, but I think we’d all agree (I hope) that firearms are the primary and most dangerous tool utilized by military or paramilitary units. The special units get more training (a couple times of month at least), but it is almost entirely tactics or firearms (how to clear a building, how to subdue an active shooter, how to intervene in various hostage situations or barricaded subject scenarios). My point is that these units get VERY LITTLE hand to hand training. The training received, innocuously titled ‘defensive tactics,’ is based on apprehension and control or stalling an attacker (remember most of the people police fight are trying to escape, not attack) until back-up gets there.
The guy I currently train under worked with SEALs, taught SERE school, tactical communitcation, and combat survival. He has always held that a SEAL would trash most ‘black belts’ out there, but because of combat mindset (intensity, ferocity, and aggression!!) rather than technical proficiency. And even then, the training is not focused on apprehension and control or disarming – it’s based on taking people down and putting them out ASAP. A friend of mine with quite a bit more military training than martial arts training summed up some recent close quarters combat training he received as, “Rush ‘em and keep hitting them until they stop moving.”
My point is that someone with experience in the Special Operations Unit should be good at whatever it is they do, but I can’t imagine it involves disarming multiple attackers OR a wealth of experience with muggings of ANY type.
If you’re getting training that tells you to run if possible, otherwise try to rush one attacker and take control of their weapon to use against the others, that’s probably as realistic a strategy as you can ask for (other than ‘pull your concealed firearm or knife). If you have instructors who are telling you that they can safely disarm multiple attackers who are actually trying to hurt or kill them, it’s time to leave, folks.
9/25/2006 9:39am, #616I would also argue that some attackers convince themselves that they can pull off their crime without reprimand. For a lot of them, that is the primary motivating factor. But if pain is suddenly introduced in the equation, a lot of those same people may choose to abandon the attack and retreat. Not all attackers weigh the risks of getting hurt realistically against the potential gain of their actions.
There is also the VERY real possibility of the mentally unbalanced aggressor who will NOT stop coming at you because of any amount of pain. This is why some of the advanced training I’ve done stresses the difference between pain compliance and motor dysfunction. You can use a baton against someone on PCP all day long, for instance, but if you break their knee they’re going to move a little awkwardly even if they don’t feel it.
You can’t take for granted that the threat of pain, or even the application of pain, is going to be enough. Ever. If it does, wonderful!! But you can’t take it for granted.
9/25/2006 9:50am, #617Plus, this video dates back many years and a lot of this has since been reworded to diminish nomenclature like "Psychic Energy". You have to keep in mind that this stuff is translated by third parties, often people who wish to capitalize on marketing. There is definitely no magic implied (or used... just makin' sure!) here, in my opinion.I agree with all of these points regarding "psychic energy", etc. - IMHO this was never more than a poor choice of words/translation compounded by TRS marketing
This is an example of the totality of the circumstances making it difficult to appreciate arguments. The context in which those techniques were put together on the video, demonstrated, explained by the narrator, and even titled “Beyond the Physical,” there is a DEFINITE implication of magic hocus-pocus no-touch’em crap. Maybe it’s a character flaw on my part, but I call bullshit when I see something that is
1) In a section of video labeled “Beyond the Physical” AND
2) Referred to as “the psychic energy” AND
3) Claimed to take a “minimum physical effort” to “completely control any attack” AND
4) Demonstrated with attackers that don’t follow through AND
5) Demonstrated by attackers who appear more than willing to go with the technique because they don’t need to be touched (even at half power) before reacting in the strangest ways (melting to the floor, rolling themselves forward, etc.)
It is all fine and well to say that I’m misinterpreting the exercises, that they aren’t correctly described because of a miss translation (I’m not sure what you could mistake for “psychic energy,” but I’ll check with a Russian friend), and that they are being demonstrated out of context, but that still leaves the burden of proof on those making the arguments and leaves me with a solid block of doubt.
Even with those arguments, didn’t anyone from systema bother to oversee these videos to make sure they adequately represented what they wanted represented? I am fairly computer literate, so I usually take the seminar videos from our school and put them together as DVDs - but despite the fact that I have been at the school for 8+ years, worked as a full-time instructor, and am related by blood to the owner (a fact we didn’t know until I had been there for 2 weeks – funny story!), the owner STILL checks every one to make sure it was done right. Hey, it’s his school and he wants to make sure - no problems. But don’t you think the head of a SYSTEM would at least do the same thing, if not more so?
I will happily concede that something will be lost in translation (given that some Japanese hotels post signs that read, “Please take advantage of your maid.”), but I submit to you that Ryabko is either ignorant of the videos he is featured in (which are a major part of direct advertising for his style) or he approves of them. I have trouble believing the first possibility but I’ve seen enough unscrupulous instructors (perhaps too many) to be quite suspicious about the second.
This is a separate and minor point, but I also found it interesting that the Toronto 2000 video clip refers to Ryabko as "the legendary Mikhail Ryabko, teacher of Vladimir Vasiliev..." I've been around MA circles for a long time and I don't recall many instructors identifying themselves by their students. Trainers, yes (I trained so-and-so for his last fight), but not generally instructors (unless they're dead, I suppose). I thought at first perhaps that this was to introduce Ryakbo to an audience that might be more familiar with Vasiliev (makes sense to me), but if the guy is being introduced as ‘legendary’ than he shouldn’t need that kind of identification. I expect a brief list of qualifications (which are also on the video), but the claim to fame through a student is something I would expect to see from a more competition oriented style – “So-and-so, trainer of three olympic gold medalists, is opening a McDojo near you!”
Just a question about this – are Ryabko and systema the sole sources of Vasiliev’s MA training?
9/25/2006 11:00am, #618
Erroneus debating points seem to be all they have on their side. I find it quite tedious trying to argue with them, usually they abandon logic altogether, other times they invoke it incorrectly.
I love dismantling their arguments as much as you, however it feels like we're winning the battle but losing the war. You can't convince someone that doesn't want to be convinced, no matter how well you argue your case.
Originally Posted by KungfoolssStraight punches make you go blind. More damage is done to a criminals nervous system when they are struck. Strikes that make you stronger. All this and more systema douchebaggery:
NEW BONUS REEL, feat RobG at it again! lol:
9/25/2006 11:13am, #619
Originally Posted by OnceLost
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Seattle, WA
Of course everything is qualified with a "get away if you can". But especially when it comes to working against multiple attackers these guys do things that I did not think were possible. Not suprising actually since crowd work, team work, and work against multiple attackers is one of the main threads of systema.
That said, unarmed against multiple armed opponents is not a situation anybody would seek it. Obviously you are at a serious disadvantage. Systema simply offers ways for dealing with this situation that are far better than the standard procedure you outline above.
Regarding your on the introduction of Ryabko as legendary but also as the teacher of Vasiliev. Vasiliev is far better known in North America where these materials were produced - in fact the videos were primarily marketed to Vasiliev's students through his club and his website.
Also, regarding the "legendary" tag. Ryabko is legendary in some circles. In fact, before I had ever heard of either Vasiliev or Ryabko i had be studying with a man who claimed in his bio to have been a "student of the legendary Michael Ryabko". This is back in 1996-97 and was total independent of Vasiliev. Of course having never heard of him that meant nothing to me. I only knew that my teacher (student of the legendary Michael Ryabko), Viktor Sirotin, was doing awesome stuff that I had never seen before.
Finally regarding the editorial control of the video. I can't keep track of the videos that are being discussed but they fall under one of three categories
1. Trailer for longer production a video like "Beyond The Phsyical". These are under R&V's editorial control. The "Beyond the Physical Video" in particular makes very clear what is going on though the trailer may be a bit tantalizing and vague. You may want to discuss the ethics of that but I don't care to. It is a trailer designed to sell the video - this is done all the time. I bought the video and am quite happy with it.
2. Informal training material captured at seminars or by satelite schools. These attempt to show things in a positive, or at least honest light but are outside the editorial control of the Vasiliev and Ryabko.
3. Compilations of publicly available material made by detractors specificly editted to show the material in the worst possible light.
9/25/2006 11:19am, #620
Originally Posted by kiai_killer
- Join Date
- Feb 2004
- Seattle, WA
Why didn't you go to the Systema UK thing? You and Foolss are a couple of peas in a pod.
What points are you making exactly. I don't think I have seen one yet from you two, just a lot of squawky about:
1. he's fat
refutation - so what
refutation - nobody knows what happened except that there were many people and many of them were armed. How would you have handled it? Systema makes no claims of invincibility, it simply offers different ways to deal with multiple attackers. The best of which is to avoid the situation all together because you are likely to get killed no matter what you have studied.
3. look at the videos haha
refutation - The videos shows exercises, demos, and work. It is certainly not bjj. I guess to some they look funny. Not much I can say here except that watching and experiencing are two very different things.
You talk about winning the "war". If you count post count and childishness you have a clear advantage. Otherwise it seems to me you are on the short end of the situation as most anybody who has more than trivial experience with systema takes away something positive.
Either way I don't really care. You see, I have experienced systema so I know things that you only speculate about based on internet video. If you and KFoolss never come around it won't bother me a bit.
Last edited by EricH; 9/25/2006 12:13pm at .