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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2006 4:23pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatz
    Take driving as an example. You stall, roll etc the first time you drive (haha...well most of us do anyway) and you probably thinking, "Damn, this sucks. I hate driving" A few weeks later you're thinking "Woohoo I'm doing 200kms". What I'm trying to say is it takes time to understand something and it usually eludes you the first time you are exposed to it. Naturally, not everyone can just join a new course at a drop of a hat (you're busy, too commited to something etc) but I believe this is an honest method of testing something and to give it an honest review about it.

    An irrelevant and bad analogy.


    What kind of "car" is Systema?

    I don't need to have the experience of a Formula 1 race car driver to know Ferraris are fast and a Yugo is a piece of ****.

    Heck, I don't even have to know how to drive to be able to make reasonably informed opinion on a Ferrari vs. Yugo. I would just need to see a Ferrari or a Yugo in action outside the context of its own little Bizzaro World for comparison.

    (And true, I wouldn't be able to form a valid opinion at first glance so much if the car were a Chevrolet. Still, I don't even need to see a Yugo in action outside the context of its own little Bizzaro World to tell its a piece of ****. But yes, people can become passionate about little pieces of **** cars like a Yugo. It still is a piece of ****, regardless.)


    Your are going to need either a better or more specific analogy if you wish to compare Systema to cars because the one you just offered is not helping you.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 9/20/2006 4:25pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. Blatz is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2006 4:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Systema

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Blatz,

    I didn't use the term, but I believe 'sucker punch' is being used to mean a strike against a target that isn't prepared for it (such as timing your strike to a target's breathing to knock the breath out of them). This is one of the 'tricks' a martial arts instructor can utilize to impress students with limited experience (others can be seen on the videos, including a timing difference trick where the attacker moves at 50% speed while the instructor responds to the attack at 75% speed).

    Regarding the use of "psychic powers" -
    I don't use Youtube, but a number of videos appear to be hosted there. This link is to a "workshop" video called "Toronto 2000" and the "psychic" section is a little more than halfway to the end and titled "Beyond the Physical."
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ma+funny&hl=en


    A couple of videos that display other problems with 'techniques' -
    This link is to a video clip of frighteningly stupid knife defenses:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=systema&hl=en

    The link with the guy teaching "chain defenses" is:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ma+chain&hl=en

    A video at the following link only some quasi-sparring against multiple attackers, which should not impress anyone who's ever seen a street fight with more than 2 combatants, and some knife attack responses here:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=systema&hl=en

    The "Questions Answered" video I mention is here:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=systema&hl=en
    Cool thanks for the info. Unfortunately the videos will take some time for me to download, I'm still on 56k :p
  3. Blatz is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2006 4:39pm

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     Style: Systema

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    An irrelevant and bad analogy.


    What kind of "car" is Systema?

    I don't need to have the experience of a Formula 1 race car driver to know Ferraris are fast and a Yugo is a piece of ****.

    Heck, I don't even have to know how to drive to be able to make reasonably informed opinion on a Ferrari vs. Yugo. I would just need to see a Ferrari or a Yugo in action outside the context of its own little Bizzaro World for comparison.

    (And true, I wouldn't be able to form a valid opinion at first glance so much if the car were a Chevrolet. Still, I don't even need to see a Yugo in action outside the context of its own little Bizzaro World to tell its a piece of ****. But yes, people can become passionate about little pieces of **** cars like a Yugo. It still is a piece of ****, regardless.)


    Your are going to need either a better or more specific analogy if you wish to compare Systema to cars because the one you just offered is not helping you.
    Regardless of my analogy, I'm sure you understand the point I'm trying to put across? We can argue about cars and poor analogies and what not, but its irrelevant and avoids the point of the topic.
  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/20/2006 4:48pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatz
    We can argue about cars and poor analogies and what not, but its irrelevant and avoids the point of the topic.

    No, offering up irrelevant bullshit as reasoned debate is what avoids the point. You did that, not me. I just called you on it and decided to destroy your irrelevant argument because I was bored.


    What is available for a basis of comparison outside the context of Systema's Bizzaro World is Bullshido. Now, if you want to say "no no no its not really like that come check us out its the real deal" and that's fine. But all you just did is dig a Bizzaro World hole filled with McDojo marketing "bait and switch" tactics. And here we are again because it's not helping you, either.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  5. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/20/2006 4:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatz
    Regardless of my analogy, I'm sure you understand the point I'm trying to put across? We can argue about cars and poor analogies and what not, but its irrelevant and avoids the point of the topic.
    No what is trying to be said by the Systema guys is that nobody can Judge Systema wthout taking a month of classes .

    That excatly like saying " you can't make an opinion on hardcore right wing conservative Christian politics unless you have been a NeoCon and voted for Bush ."

    Or something like

    " You can't make an opinion on Muslim right wing conservative fundamentlists unless you are a Muslim . "

    Or something like

    " You can't say God doesn't excists unless you have gone to Seminary . "
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
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  6. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2006 12:38am

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     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blatz
    Surely you dont have to bring down every constructive post to bickering and insults? Thats not the point of this thread. Sure, I understand your opinions of Systema are quite poor and that is your choice which is all good. However, insulting something and the people related to it just because you dont like it...well thats not constructive whatsoever and fairly childish (regardless of your age). The point of said thread? To find out whether Systema really is crap or not, not bickering or insults.
    Seeing how you're 'johnny come lately' and a new member to this forum, why do we have to rehash the same analysis regarding systema idiocy just because you decide to climb on board?

    I believe you have made a post called "Quackery in Systema: from the horse's mouth" though, which brings me to the point.
    Incorrect. If you bothered to read the article indepth, you would have noticed the very first paragraph of the article reads, "Following article was written by BumFu on 03-26-2005, 03:00 PM". Get your facts straight before you go around half-cocked.

    I read what Omega posted in his report and I think its a fair and contructive report. However, the one problem I find is that all these reviews and such are mostly based on video clips released from the various Systema websites. This to me, is like saying you understand Japanese culture after watching a few episodes of anime.
    First of all, anime is fantasy as most people realize, unlike yourself. I've never heard anybody in my lifetime ever - up to this point - equate japanese anime with japanese culture, other than to marvel at the superiority of their work. When you watch just a few episodes of anime on prime time, you cannot help but be impressed by the technical expertise when compared to those in the west. Can we say the same after watching a few clips of systema? Obviously not. Instinctively, we know what crap looks like and systema reeks of it. However, I will say that much like japanese anime, systema promotes fantasy and at the end of the day, neither should be held as reality.

    Also Omega said that he sparred against 2 Systema practitioners which is constructive and helps to prove a point. Now from what I understand Omega is an accomplished fighter and has had his share of experiences (and I think even teaches his own classes). I dont think its fair for someone like him to spar against people who are not as experienced as he, because chances are he is going to win.
    Come on, stop lying to yourself. Fact of the matter is systema death touches won't work against someone that trains 'alive'. Quit with the excuses. Besides, systema instructors RobG and RobP knew well in advance before and during this investigation Omega was conducting ducked his calls for help in his research. RobG made all manner of excuses "about the time not being right" and RobP just disappeared. Now that the report is complete, RobG is acting his usually psychotic self and RobP is inviting all doubters to train at his seminars.

    A spar against another instructor would be much better in terms of testing how effective Systema is (unless of course the 2 people he sparred with are instructors, then I have nothing to say).
    As I stated previously, the two active systema posters here with instructor level knowledge ducked Omega during his investigation.

    I believe someone can only truly comment on Systema if said person joined a Systema class for at least one month or longer (yes, you read right).
    Then you're in for a shock, because I don't give a crap if that's what you insist.

    Why so long you ask?
    Can't say that I care. What's your current post count, less than ten?

    Take driving as an example. You stall, roll etc the first time you drive (haha...well most of us do anyway) and you probably thinking, "Damn, this sucks. I hate driving" A few weeks later you're thinking "Woohoo I'm doing 200kms". What I'm trying to say is it takes time to understand something and it usually eludes you the first time you are exposed to it.
    If you're not knowledgeable about any subject whether it be cars or the fighting arts, guess what, it's obviously going to take you a longer time figure out if you've made a bad decision. The individual with a superior knowledge base can analyze concepts immediately then show you what you're doing wrong. It's the layman and uneducated that espouses the 'wait and see' methodology similar to yours.

    Naturally, not everyone can just join a new course at a drop of a hat (you're busy, too commited to something etc) but I believe this is an honest method of testing something and to give it an honest review about it.

    Any constructive posts should be encouraged, just spouting off, "Systema sucks, is a load of ****" is perfectly fine but then the claim must be backed up CONSTRUCTIVELY by experience, not opinions.
    There is threads and posts going on all the time here at Bullshido regarding "experienced based" commentary, they all say the same exact thing, systema is crap. Happy?

    Right now I'm unable to comment on the psychic techniques and healing shots but I asked my instructor about it and he explained the "Beyond the physical" thing. Honestly speaking, I am still skeptical about it and my preconception about it is that its a load of crap, but I've never experienced it so I wont pass off ignorant comments about it. I asked my instructor to show me what its like and perform an example on me. If it works, I'm afraid you will just have to take my word for it as I have no way to prove it. If it doesnt work, I will tell you as well.
    Go right ahead and say it works, we'll still say you're full of crap. The very fact that you need it to be used on you to judge whether or not such a thing is even capable speaks volumes to your gullibility.

    Now I'm not trying to be biased or anything, but regardless of the findings or what people think, I will still stick to Systema because I enjoy it. Yes, label me as a "cultist" if you want, but I dont think theres anything wrong with practising something you are passionate about.
    Well, let's hope that misguided passion doesn't get you killed like a certain systema instructor. :icon_lol:
    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 9/21/2006 12:54am at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  7. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2006 10:04am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lost,
    Are you talking about the CN class at the Univiersities? (There was a club at FSU and one at FAMU when I was there) If so which teacher did you have?
    The class I attended was at FSU, but I'm not sure who the instructor was. It's been about 6 years since that one time when I worked out with them...If I recall, it was an older Vietnamese man, about 5'6", with an accent that was difficult to understand.
    Last edited by OnceLost; 9/21/2006 10:12am at .
  8. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/21/2006 10:05am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Blatz, what was your instructor's explanation for the "beyond the physical?"

    Honestly speaking, I am still skeptical about it and my preconception about it is that its a load of crap, but I've never experienced it so I wont pass off ignorant comments about it. I asked my instructor to show me what its like and perform an example on me. If it works, I'm afraid you will just have to take my word for it as I have no way to prove it. If it doesnt work, I will tell you as well.
    Be careful with this – it’s one of those martial arts “tricks” that instructors use based on the pratice of quasi-hypnosis/neuro-linguistic programming/pre-programming. I realize the technical term may have been incorrect, so let me elaborate.

    If someone came up to you on the street and said, “I can knock you unconscious by just waving my hands in the air,” you might say, “Okay, show me,” but you’d be thinking, “Bullshido!” If, on the other hand, your instructor - someone you admire, trust, and respect – tells you the same thing, you are more inclined to willingly suspend your disbelief. After all, what martial artist DOESN’T want to believe that they can render someone unconscious without touching them? Who doesn’t want to believe they have special skills or powers? So you respectfully ask your instructor to show you this “beyond the physical” stuff…and he demonstrates on someone else, probably a senior student. He waves his hands in the senior student’s face and the senior student falls down, apparently unconscious. Now he’ll offer to demonstrate on you – after he’s both told you that it works (usually with something that passes for an explanation) and SHOWN you that it works. You’ve been pre-programmed to accept that when certain conditions are met (When instructor waves his hands in my face) something will happen (I will be knocked unconscious). When you fall down after he waves his hands in your face, it just reinforces your belief, which supports the ‘programming.’

    Here’s a real world example: when oleoresin capsaicin (OC or pepper spray) was introduced to US police agencies, the manufacturing companies produced a series of “instructional” videos about how potent their spray was. It had videos of company employees or other police officers getting sprayed, falling down, and writhing helplessly on the ground. BUT, when the police started using the spray, they found it to be far less effective on the bad guys – there is a long time joke about OC spray being more effective on cops than on crooks. Now every police officer was sprayed when they got the company’s training, so they knew the effects first had, but the same effects didn’t seem carry over to the combative subjects they used the spray on.
    Why?
    Because prior to getting sprayed in training, the police had learned how the spray works, how it causes simulated respiratory distress, how it leeches moisture from the eyes and causes involuntary eye closure, how it causes an uncontrollably runny nose, how it disorients and disables people. Then the police saw videos reinforcing this. When they were sprayed, they already ‘knew’ how they were supposed to react.

    That programming was so effective that now many police academies, including the one I attended, have to train cops that they can fight after being exposed to pepper sprays. We watched an instructor take a hit and then calmly stand and count to 100 before we each had to take a 2 second direct hit and then hold someone at gunpoint for 3 minutes. Just to show the trainees that the spray WOULDN’T disable us!

    Still not sure? Think about this – no one offers to teach “beyond the physical” stuff to a new student. Why not? The usual answer is that such training takes year of study and dedication before it can be introduced. What if the student already has extensive martial arts experience, including ‘internal’ styles or styles similar to the ‘beyond the physical’ thing? The answer here is either something like a student has to train in “this styles concepts of higher consciousness,” or that a student must first “prove themselves” to the instructor before becoming worthy. Effectively, the instructor won’t introduce concepts based on faith to someone who is still skeptical. Sadly, some instructors actually buy in to this nonsense and really believe they’re teaching effective “no touch” knock-outs or other “beyond the physical” crap.

    Take driving as an example. You stall, roll etc the first time you drive (haha...well most of us do anyway) and you probably thinking, "Damn, this sucks. I hate driving" A few weeks later you're thinking "Woohoo I'm doing 200kms".
    I actually like your analogy of driving and cars, but I think it supports the “Systema is crap” perspective. For someone who has never driven or has NO experience with cars, they might need some time experimenting with one before they decide if they like it. Other people have driven for years and have experience with different cars, so they are able to form an educated opinion, if not a fully exposed opinion, on cars they’ve never actually driven.

    What I'm trying to say is it takes time to understand something and it usually eludes you the first time you are exposed to it.
    Perhaps, but with the many, many martial arts out there, most of them share the same concepts and foundation techniques. Once someone has been exposed to several (or even to one but in depth), it doesn’t take as long to understand new concepts or material. Ever hear how every time you learn a new language, it gets a little easier?

    Yes, I firmly believe that experienced, knowledgeable people can watch video clips and provide an educated opinion on what the video shows. I don’t know enough about systema to say the entire system is worthless (I’m sure it’s not), but I can recognize the ridiculous and dangerous crap being taught in those video clips.

    You can’t polish a turd. You can deodorize it and call it perfume, but anyone who recognizes a turd will see right through it – that’s exactly what’s happening “beyond the physical.”
  9. TheWarriorman is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2006 1:29pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kungfoolss... I needed to mention this... WTF!?...

    I only read the first 5 pages and the last 5 pages of this thread, but twice in that span, you referenced a MURDERED family man - the last time with a SMILEY! I don't really care how you feel about Systema, but why laugh at the fact that this man's wife and daughter are left without him? That's unequivocally disturbing.

    One other thing I'll mention while I'm here concerns the methodology of this "Final Report". Not that I care much or disagree with the methods used, but I'm curious: why hasn't (at least from what I've read) anybody partaking in this research trained with Vasiliev personally? From everything I've read, he's very open and would let you guys in for free at his Club to challenge his explanations. I understand the other dude, Ryabko, is likely out of reach for most (geographically-speaking), but why base an impression of a martial art on its students? I mean, this isn't like we're talking Mystical GrandMaster training in the Koga Mountains of Japan...

    One likely reason is that you didn't care enough to do it, which I can totally understand if you're not that keen on Systema in the first place, but discussing it for nigh 60 pages on an internet forum?... Kinda hints at an interest - at least in finding out the truth - in my opinion. So why not meet with the guy whom the Systema people point to as being TH3 B3ST? Would make sense to me...
  10. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/21/2006 2:43pm

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     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't really care how you feel about Systema, but why laugh at the fact that this man's wife and daughter are left without him? That's unequivocally disturbing.
    I have to agree with The Warriorman about this one.

    So why not meet with the guy whom the Systema people point to as being TH3 B3ST? Would make sense to me...
    I'll learn whatever I can from whoever I can, but I'm several thousand miles away so all I have to go on are videos. Yes, I know - it's a video. Worse yet, it's a video clip on the interest. Here's what it comes down to for me - I have no interest in training with Vasiliev after watching him use what I would call a hook kick to snag a descending knife. And I believe it's him doing the instructing in that chain defense video, another one that just scares me. I'm sure he has valid, effective, and useful knowledge to share, but what I've seen drives me away.

    Again, I'm relatively new to the forum, but I know from experience that there are martial arts instructors who thrive on bullshido. Ashida Kim springs to mind, George Dillman's "no touch" knockout techniques (and even some of his hands-on ones), a school in Ashville, North Carolina headed by a "undefeated" 12th degree black belt, and a local guy in Tallahassee who's changed the style his school teaches several times in the past 10 years (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Goju Karate, Shaolin Goju)and is the only "8th degree kickboxer" I've ever met. I think there is an obligation to identify potential BS martial arts schools and systems, if merely to protect the reputation of 'legitimate' martial arts schools, be they traditional, competition or sport oriented, MMA, or self defense oriented.

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