Thread: Final Report: Systema-
9/08/2006 9:18pm, #531Originally Posted by kiai_killer
and that I have a hidden agenda, etc.
They are also saying that they have never made no-touch claims.
So if KFS is obsessed, we need a new word for those guys, they will fly in the face of logic to defend their "art".Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
9/08/2006 9:40pm, #532Originally Posted by MrMcFu
When we see systema workout videos, the participants always have looks of glee and mirth plastered on their faces like a bunch of 5-year-olds. This I believe gives an insight to the level of maturity and overall value of their belief structure.Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
9/10/2006 4:15am, #533
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- Jul 2005
Little sidenote to support KFS cult-theory:
in their own private funny-farm (i.e. forum), the systemaniacs coined the phrase, how systema is a faith based martial art.
So you just have to believe in it without any signs of real proof ... just like the average cult of your choice ;)
9/10/2006 4:35am, #534Originally Posted by sui generis
9/10/2006 5:05am, #535
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I know it, since I am an ex-systemaniac who somehow managed to pull his head out of his ass.
In my old days, I read every existant systema forum and stumbeled over that term.
But if you go to the forum at russianmartialart.com and search for faith based martial art you will get some results, for example like this:
"The Systema operating system as taught by Mikhail and Vladimir is a faith-based operating system. "
9/10/2006 2:39pm, #536Originally Posted by sui generis
This quote I believe sums up the questionable state of mental stability of the average systetma cultist describing his experience of attending a church tour with Vlad the Mad -
“One such instance was during a tour of a magnificent ROC church that had we visited. even the coldest die hard athiest could not deny the beauty, or reverence; that this church held. Everywhere there was beautiful art, icons...even the very floors held the look of a surfaced kept immaculate with loving devotion.
As our excellent guide was speaking about the restoration of the art that spanned the ceiling of the church -- I noticed that Vlad was missing from the main group. I looked about for him and witnessed as he walked about showing his personal respects for the various stations of devotion along the perimeter of the walls. I could not hear the words of our guide as I watched him, so intent was my concentration on him. The simplest expressions of faith, performed by this humble man...alone and quietly, with such deep devotion registering very clearly on his face...was so beautiful, so human - it brought tears to my eyes, literally. I felt as though, be watching him; I had been touched by a form of faith and reverence that I had long forgotten. It is one of my most touching and treasured memories of the whole trip to Moscow.
I hope that I have not said too much about this.
It was just too beautiful not to attempt to share it again.”
Who is this person you may be wondering? None other than our own RobG.
Last edited by Kungfoolss; 9/10/2006 2:46pm at .Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
9/14/2006 10:25am, #537
I know I’m late to the debate on this one, but I’m going to throw my two pennies in anyway.
My exposure to Systema is limited to recent exposure to the video clips available on the internet (primarily through Google video), so my comments are made with the following acknowledgements:
1) Video clips do not have the impact (no pun intended) of actual first hand training experience
2) I have never knowingly worked with anyone with experience in Systema
That said, I believe a certain amount of experience will allow an opinion on the material that I saw. I started in TKD as a child, but my training for the past decade has revolved around realistic, street oriented, and effective self defense. I’ve formally studied and achieved various ranks in several martial arts, have informally worked with numerous stylists of vastly different backgrounds, worked as a beat cop for five years (in the 139th largest city in the US – I’ll let you look that one up), taught martial arts professionally, taught self defense to civilians and police officers, taught numerous rape prevention classes and seminars, and instructed officers and civilians (mostly bouncers) in apprehension and control techniques, and designed and effectively used a variety of adrenal stress conditioning drills for training scenarios. I currently study a self defense heavy branch of Kenpo in a school owned by a guy who was a US Navy SERE instructor and taught survival and combat communications to SEALs (he was a seebee, not a SEAL) . This should be noted - I’ve never been a professional fighter or competed in MMA competitions.
Keeping that in mind, this is strictly an analysis of the material I saw on the internet videos, ranging from the 6 second clips to the longer ones exhibiting workshop footage, knife defenses, et cetera.
What crap. The mechanics of both the attackers and the defender are remarkably unimpressive. Attacks appeared to be performed with little or no follow through and attackers appeared more than willing to turn their attack into a roll. The pot bellied guy (Ryabko?) is certainly big enough that I wouldn’t want to get hit by those ham-hock fists, but I have trouble with the defenders exaggerating their responses to strikes (or throws) that didn’t touch them. The free-style defending against multiple attackers is a joke. The knife defenses I saw were an absolute disaster and in almost ALL of the techniques (I know it’s not supposed to be a ‘technique’ in Systema, so call them what you will), the defender is bringing the knife right to a vital area (gut) and getting cut during or after the ‘defense’... and they usually leave the attacker with control of the knife. What I think is an attempt at leading (directing an attacker a la aikido) is poorly executed and what I think are supposed to be flow drills with a blade are frightening. The 5+ minute video about defending against a chain is going to get somebody killed - has the defender/instructor ever actually been hit by a chain? As someone who has, it sucks. You can't just drap your arm over it and toss it back at the attacker!
There are a few things that I did appreciate and, to be fair, I’ll include those as well. Starting a 1:36 (minutes:seconds) on a video clip listed on Google video as Systema the Questions Answered and ending by 1:38 there was a nice little pass and elbow used to reverse an attacker's motion into a throw. Starting at 2:08 and ending by 2:13, there was a lovely tackle defense involving a finger trap and ankle stomp. Neither technique is exclusive to Systema, but how many arts can honestly claim something as exclusive and effective in the same sentence? I wasn’t very impressed at the “hands in the pockets” or “hands behind the back” posture of the defender in that clip – you perform the way you practice, so don’t put your hands behind your back and pretend to casually stroll off once the threat is temporarily halted – but I can understand it as a means of expressing competence. Of course this clip, like any training done in a controlled situation, clearly has an attitude of presumed compliance – the defender obviously knew the attacker was going to attack, regardless of the method of attack. No real way to get around that, I suppose...I won't discuss the commentary of the clip.
I admit that my experience with Systema is limited to those video clips and I’m not going to make anys claims about the style, but those very video clips, billed as either a ‘marketing video’ or ‘workshop footage,’ leave me with no desire to look any further into the matter.
I don’t intend for this to be an attack on the system, because EVERY style or system has its own faults and instructors who aren’t particularly effective as poster-children, but if those video clips are the best Systema has to offer they can write off having students with previous self defense MA experience. This is merely my observation of multiple videos which have been publicly posted, presumably to promote Systema. (Good alliteration there, huh?)
In short - would you really be interested in going to a movie if every trailer you’ve seen was poorly done?
9/18/2006 6:22pm, #538
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- Sep 2006
Sorry off topic but...
I havent read the entire forum posting (just been skimming through the posts and kinda stopped at page 3...I mean 1 - 54, come on :p ) but I was just wondering could someone show me where it says all that stuff about psychic moves, healing punches etc? I have been doing Systema for 8 months now and I have never heard of such things, my instructor would probably laugh at it? Or even better, where can you get those videos? I'm curious as to how Systema is taught overseas (America?), maybe its different to how its taught here (I'm from South Africa).
Sorry if anything has been discussed already but I'm really curious about it. because after reading all that stuff about psychic powers etc...well, im not surprised why people would think Systema is full of ****.
What I'm worried about now is there might be some people who say they are proper Systema instructors blah blah and then pulling some McDojo moves and raking in cash from the gullible monkeys. Don't get me wrong though, I'm sure there are really good instructors out there but it seems that there are probably bad ones too...but that applies to any martial art school I guess.
Anyways, thanks again
P.S. what do you mean by sucker punch? Yep i'm a noob to these terms
9/18/2006 9:25pm, #539
I didn't use the term, but I believe 'sucker punch' is being used to mean a strike against a target that isn't prepared for it (such as timing your strike to a target's breathing to knock the breath out of them). This is one of the 'tricks' a martial arts instructor can utilize to impress students with limited experience (others can be seen on the videos, including a timing difference trick where the attacker moves at 50% speed while the instructor responds to the attack at 75% speed).
Regarding the use of "psychic powers" -
I don't use Youtube, but a number of videos appear to be hosted there. This link is to a "workshop" video called "Toronto 2000" and the "psychic" section is a little more than halfway to the end and titled "Beyond the Physical."
A couple of videos that display other problems with 'techniques' -
This link is to a video clip of frighteningly stupid knife defenses:
The link with the guy teaching "chain defenses" is:
A video at the following link only some quasi-sparring against multiple attackers, which should not impress anyone who's ever seen a street fight with more than 2 combatants, and some knife attack responses here:
The "Questions Answered" video I mention is here:
9/18/2006 10:15pm, #540
Originally Posted by Blatz
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