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  1. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 8:34pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiai_killer
    Oh you're guessing that are you? In case you didn't realise, I have all the systema videos, I'm pretty sure I'm not taking anything out of context as I have the footage surrounding the clips. I don't do guesswork. If you wanted longer clips you just had to ask.

    I'll make an extended clip of the boxing part (As it's the most blatant), but I warn you in advance, it's only going to make it worse for you. I've only just skimmed the surface of the materials at my disposal.
    In the event you weren't aware, DdlR puts Joseph Goebbels to shame.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  2. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 8:38pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR

    BTW - "Systema no-touch K.O.s" is an Internet myth. If you've already made up your mind about this then so be it, but in all the research I've done, I've never seen a Systema practitioner perform (or even claim to have performed) a no-touch knock out.


    Do the moves in beyond the physical actually possible?

    Tom Drake

    Joined: 18 Apr 2005
    Posts: 3

    Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:21 am Post subject: Do the moves in beyond the physical actually possible?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Can you really stop an assault by not touching your opponent? Anybody know from experience?

    *****************************************



    RobGreen



    Joined: 05 Dec 2003
    Posts: 775
    Location: NYC
    Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:13 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Yeah, Brad -- but then you have that whole police investigation thing to deal with..LOL.

    Mr. Drake, yes there are a number here that 'know from experience'. Myself included. I have recounted the instances before - and need not do so here in detail. At work > attacked by a violent individual > who wound up 'throwing himself' down a stair case. No contact. His rage caused him to track my hand as a target - until he went far off balance and fell. Written report refused by supervisory staff - "Nobody would believe this ****"! (You cant have a 'use of force' report - when you actually use no physical force.) Attackers statement reflected that he did not know why he fell. Only one of a number of times I have had 'no contact work'...WORK!

    As an afterthought, I want you to understand that one need not be a Vladimir or Misha to do no contact work. Know also that this type of 'work' is not staged -- the recorded work happened in real time. If you knew the guys getting bounced by Misha, as I do; you would also know they were not 'tanking'...the n/contact looks impossible, but it is something one has to experience. Seeing may not always be 'believing', but getting dropped to the ground (or tossed down a flight of stairs) by this method - is very much a convincing experience. I would not worry about it though, lotsa Systema to do before you start n/contact-ing partners...and even more before you can rely upon this in real world use.
    _________________
    Rob Green
    NYC
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  3. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 8:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiai_killer
    Well, he was basically saying before that, that if you are a good person you wont get hurt as much by strikes as a criminal IIRC. Hence the comment "Strikes irritate the criminal's nervous system even more.

    I don't really have time to continue posting right now (Need to watch some stargate, have a cup of tea then sleep) or to check out the video again to confirm what I just said 100%, but I'll take another look tomorrow.

    Edit: btw, I posted the clip just above your post, I think I posted it while you were replying.

    Edit 2:
    Sorry I responded to this part of your post:

    "Strikes irritate the criminal's nervous system even more. (Either?) you have to strike perfectly, in the right way. Not to harm him, but the strike should calm him down."

    I'll get around to the other one when I get some sleep, when I need to make this many edits and reply to the wrong questions I know it's time to sign off for the night!
    By the way, unless you're willing to put 100% of your systema video footage on the net, you're never going to ever convince a wart like DdlR of the obvious. He's hopelessly deluded.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  4. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 8:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiai_killer
    Here's the clip I promised:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFH2bao3WWI
    Aside from the fact that boxers make extensive use of hooks, given systema's flawed line of reasoning regarding straight punches...just where are all the karate stylists that should have all gone blind?
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 9:01pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Thanks - context = gold.

    Ryabko is saying that straight punches, i.e. punches in which the skeleton is aligned to drive from the rear foot, up through the major joints and through the fist, cause a rebound effect that can concuss the brain and damage eyesight. I'll assume that he's taking for granted that "the boxer" would be striking a solid target and that he's talking hypothetically about the cumulative effect of over-training this type of punch.

    He's right in that the sudden acceleration and deceleration, the "jolt" caused by hitting a solid object with a correctly-aligned straight punch (especially a lead-hand punch driven by the rear foot) can cause retinal detachment and concussion, especially if it is trained to excess. However, either Ryabko or his translator manages to give the impression that this is a common event or a major risk; it isn't, except for people who are already medically prone to retinal detachment or to being concussed. Doctors recommend that such people should avoid any activity that risks jarring their skulls.

    This is rather like saying in short-hand that carotid artery chokes "are lethal"; they can be, and there are some people who are at a far greater than average risk of being killed by a choke hold because their arteries don't re-open properly once the hold has been released. However, that doesn't change the fact that most people can receive a carotid choke and recover without any major trauma.


    I call Bullshido on both points.

    Please provide your documentation which substantiates your boxing blindness theory and your choke theory.


    (Before you put your foot in your mouth further on the second one, I already know the source of the choke theory. it comes from a disgraced racist police comissioner explaining why blacks died more often when they had the "sleeper" hold applied.)
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/09/2006 9:03pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
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  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 10:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I call Bullshido on both points.

    Please provide your documentation which substantiates your boxing blindness theory and your choke theory.


    (Before you put your foot in your mouth further on the second one, I already know the source of the choke theory. it comes from a disgraced racist police comissioner explaining why blacks died more often when they had the "sleeper" hold applied.)
    I remember that guy, too - late '70s, early '80s? - but no, he's not my source.

    The general choke risk is particularly high for people who are subject to cardiac disorders and hypertension, but obviously any carotid artery choke can be fatal if it's held for too long. However, the fact that it's possible doesn't make it probable, which was my issue with what Ryabko was translated as having said.

    This is rather like saying in short-hand that carotid artery chokes "are lethal"; they can be, and there are some people who are at a far greater than average risk of being killed by a choke hold because their arteries don't re-open properly once the hold has been released. However, that doesn't change the fact that most people can receive a carotid choke and recover without any major trauma.
    The arterial wall problem is especially associated with Marfan Syndrome, which is a congenital weakness of the structure of the arteries. In these cases, the arterial walls can simply lack normal resilience and fail to re-open properly after being forcefully closed, resulting in the danger of an aneurism.

    Another possible cause is carotid atherosclerosis, which is basically a build-up of plaque within the carotid arteries. Again, external constriction can cause the plaque to fragment and travel to the brain, which can cause a stroke.

    See http://www.marfan.org/nmf/index.jsp for an overview of Marfan Syndrome and
    http://www.med.nyu.edu/fgpvascular/c...s/carotid.html for carotid atherosclerosis.

    One of the best surveys of the risks of MA choking techniques is that produced by Dr. Karl Koiwai - http://www.bjj.org/articles/971006-choke/ . He makes the very valid point that there is not a single record of death by choke/stranglehold in the history of competitive judo, which says much for both judo's safety/medical screening procedures and for the safety benefits of controlled choking. He also lists a number of fatalities during police takedown and restraint procedures, often exascerbated by the victim's drug use, medical history, positional aesphyxia, etc.

    "Boxing blindness" etc. - I'm running out of time, but see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinal_detachment with reference to the risk factors associated with extreme myopia (the connection between cranial shock and retinal detachment is debated by doctors) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica .

    Or just punch a solid target with correct alignment, or jump up and down with stiff legs, landing on your heels, until you get a headache.

    Like I said, I think that Mr. Ryabko was hypothesizing and that it would be an exaggeration to say that these effects are common, let alone inevitable.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a plane to catch!
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2006 11:07pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    Arkadiy Stepankovskiy had systema instructor-level experience and he's dead.
    you know I googled that and it looks like a Russian mob hit behind a strip mall. not many MA's are going to help you if you get on the Russian mob's bad side
  8. gibiore is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2006 12:36am


     Style: Delving into MMA...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    Gee, what an objective look at systema....
    he also reviewed Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Aikido but i've never seen that footage
  9. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2006 2:15am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cock Wrangler
    Arkadiy Stepankovskiy had systema instructor-level experience and he's dead.
    I would like to reply in an equally relevant fashion.

    Kungfoolss injests feces, his own and other's.
  10. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2006 4:42am


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    Aside from the fact that boxers make extensive use of hooks, given systema's flawed line of reasoning regarding straight punches...just where are all the karate stylists that should have all gone blind?

    Have to agree with Kungy on this one. A good boxer is relaxed when he strikes. I have had people say that boxers are too aggressive etc. A decent one will be totally relaxed, calm mind, breathing correctly (outbreaths) any aggression will be controlled. You will not last long if you are not. There is some confusion about boxing strikes. If you dont believe go to a professional boxing gym, not a mixed martial art centre and observe. Not sure why there is so much confusion about it? Boxers use a wide variety of punches, jabs, upper cuts, hooks, staight punches.

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