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  1. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 8:41pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the guys looked exactly as a systema guy. The other sparred according to his base but said he did systema. This was 2 or 3 years ago Satori.
  2. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 9:20pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Yeah and what is your point?
    That RobP's a flabby middle-aged and poorly coordinated systema instructor?
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  3. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 9:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    I think he's saying on September 16 will be the salvation or the end of systema as we know it.
    As if the controversy and doubts will all disappear from just one event. RobP's dumber than I suspected.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  4. Kungfoolss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 9:29pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR

    Again, I'll post my review of the Questions Answered DVD when it arrives.

    As if a biased glowing review of systema crapola is going to garner any validity but from the usual cast of retards here, RobP, RobG, HanktheSkank, systemamary....
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 10:03pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    'From the Cage to the Street'- No but he does insinuate it and systema in my opinion tries to ride it.
    Fair comment, though I don't think that "Systema" itself is trying to ride anything. We know that RobP and Paul Genge were involved in the Questions Answered production, but I'm not sure that Mr. Raybko and Mr. Vasiliev even know about this DVD. I tried to post a notice to the Vasiliev forum about it, but my post was deleted by a moderator because it infringed their policy against advertising non-sanctioned products - also fair enough, although advertising wasn't my intention.

    We didn't have mixed results. The consensus was fairly unanimous.
    I meant that your team found some good stuff and more bad stuff, rather than that there was a great deal of dissention.

    Yes and no, complicated question. I see why but it developes bad habits. It's like sitting in a horse stance punching in air. Teaches good punching mechanics but that's a bad place to put your hands and you won't know how to hit until you actually hit something.
    Without going into intricate technical details, partly because I haven't seen all the DVDs you were working with and partly because I haven't studied Systema at the practical level anyway, what sort of bad habits would you say are encouraged by these exercises? I ask that because going by what I've seen, the exercises are the most interesting and potentially valuable aspects of the art.

    Because he wasn't really fighting him, but please let us know your results, if you want stream them to me. I'm always willing to retract.
    I'll let you know either way.

    All the above. The only thing I saw that is fairly universal is relax as you punch. Another metaphor I'd like to use is taking the slow road to China. You could use the straight route or the scenic route. You'll end up exactly where you want but was it worth it.
    I reckon this is a key point. If Systema is the scenic route but you do end up at more or less the same place as taking the direct route, then I'm assuming that the main problem is the time it would take to get there. Thus, that your team felt that the exercises are a waste of time when the same skills could be developed more directly through more orthodox means. Is that the gist of it?

    I don't believe for a second you are not a systema person Dldr. But in the long run I don't care. I think if you took systema you'd eventually learn some useful things. I'd recommend it over WTF and ATA TKD if that's worth anything for you. And truthfull I did see why experianced people would take this and find value with it. They were bored and they wanted a new way to train.
    I really don't know how to prove that I'm not a Systemist, but the fact is that I've never even met a practitioner of that style. As far as I have been able to determine, and I have looked hard, there are no Systema instructors or groups in my country. Feel free to trace my Internet IP and check it against the international lists of Systema schools and instructors available on their websites, if you can be bothered.

    Someone on one of the other threads suggested that I was a "Systema plant", and I can understand the suspicion. I know that it's very unusual for a non-practitioner of a given style to mount a defense of that style. Originally, I was mostly interested in tracing the allegations of psychic claims by Systema people - the no-touch hits, etc. - investigating psychic fraud in the martial arts being a long-standing hobby of mine. When I started doing some real research I found that, as recorded in previous threads, most of these allegations were actually based on misinterpretations of what was being shown and described in the Systema videos.

    Towards that, I had to pay close attention to what was being shown, leading to my new interests in Systema pedagogy and history. Their training process is very intriguing to me as one of those "experienced people" looking for new processes, simply because it's so unusual. As I mentioned in the previous thread, as a non-practitioner I don't feel that I'm in any position to comment on the practicality or efficiency of their fighting techniques, except by reference to what I've found online and seen in the DVDs.

    I would have passed on the TKD anyway, though - went that route when I was a kid and lasted until I was seventeen or so. A long time ago, now.
    Last edited by DdlR; 7/02/2006 10:06pm at .
  6. BumFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2006 4:18am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    We asked for one systema instructor to come and show us what systema was all about but after initial contact the instructor never returned our follow up emails.
    More specifically, the guy considered to be one of the best Systema in the U.S. didn't want to play, thereby leaving the door open for Systema apologists to continue claiming the real test will come some other time.

    The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this was probably intentional so that the "real" test will always be next time and on another continent.

    The knife fighting should be dubbed, ‘how to get stabbed a lot’ or ‘how not to defend yourself against a knife’.
    What's worse is that they seem to feed the delusion that you can fight 6 knifers and come out on top-- or at least Vlad can.

    ‘Unbelievable strikes that remove stress, tension, fear, make people stronger and actually heal them!” – Re read this slowly it isn’t a typo.
    Rumor has it that the Strikes tape claims you shouldn't hit straight on because it harms you. Any truth to this?

    The quote isn't surprising to me. There was a clip of Ryabko at the Aiki Expo making a guy laugh by hitting him.

    Most of those no touch knockdowns you have seen are actually just exercises in avoidance and movement. Most of those light touches where a person gets knocked off their feet is a student being sucker punched, or reacting according to a preconditioned response, like aikidoka getting airborne from a simple wrist lock.
    However, when seminar reviews and the old posts from their forum are read it becomes clear that there was hocus pocus going on under the name psychic energy.
  7. BumFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2006 4:30am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    You're right. I'll see if Genge is willing to put up the rest of his throwdown footage on youtube.
    Is that the UK footage of the guy getting punched in the face? Looked like an all too common mistake in MA where you drop your hand to guard your ass when kicking. Genge did a nice job capitalizing on the mistake, though it's hard to see how that legitimizes Systema given the other info.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2006 5:20am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    However, when seminar reviews and the old posts from their forum are read it becomes clear that there was hocus pocus going on under the name psychic energy.
    BumFu,

    regarding your post/essay "Quackery in Systema: From the Horse's Mouth" - this was actually what first interested me in researching Systema. The best I can say now is that it was a reasonable attempt at a smear job via casual Google-fu. You jumped to a number of conclusions, failed to check your sources, and paid scant heed to the relative authority of the sources you did cite.

    For those who can't be bothered reading all the way through the following or checking the facts for themselves, just note that while attributing "claims" to a vague "they" is a time-honored trick, it leaves you open to criticism from anyone who cares do do their homework.

    I did some digging based on this essay, tracking down the original sources and contacting some of the people involved.

    I agree wholeheartedly with one of your latter points, which was that if the senior Systema people are concerned about their image outside of their own organisation, they need to specifically clarify what is being presented in some of the online excerpts from their instructional DVDs. On the other hand, most of these clips are edited together and posted anonymously and there's often no way of knowing who is actually responsible for them.

    My own impression is that much of the confusion and controversy surrounding these issues is due to (understandable) misinterpretations and mistaken assumptions based on what is shown and described in these clips.

    Regarding some of the items presented as "evidence" in your post -

    The review from the Dojo of the Four Winds website doesn't represent any sort of Systema claim one way or the other - it was written by a student from another style who had attended a five-day Systema workshop. He made a lot of far-out claims; they may have been 100% accurate, or he may have been deliberately lying, unconsciously exaggerating, or simply mis-reporting based on a skewed perspective of what was actually being taught. Either way, given his very limited exposure to the art and his obvious New Age inclinations, I submit that citing his article as an example of "Systema quackery" is an example of very casual and biased reportage.

    The "Mind Warrior" article was written by Trevor Robinson in the year 2000, and at that time his only experience with Systema was having attended a two-week workshop. I recently contacted Mr. Robinson and he confirmed that he had been under pressure from the magazine he was writing for and had based the "bioplasmic energy" information on another (non-Systema) source.

    The consensus amongst senior, contemporary Systema practitioners is that the "no-touch" work is based on subtle psychological and physical skills, not magic, chi power or parapsychology.

    Further, my research suggests that a great deal of the "no-touch" work has simply been misinterpreted by people who confuse training drills designed to teach evasion skills with demonstrations of Yellow Bamboo style telekinesis. This is compounded when people only refer to online clips rather than watching the full instructional DVDs, which put these exercises in context.

    The various "psychic" exercises cited in Mr. Robinson's article were, in fact, not Systema exercises at all. They were derived from a question and answer section in a Systema handbook, in which Mr. Vasiliev was describing some of the training methods he had been told to perform while in the Spetsnaz. These exercises have apparently never been part of the Systema curriculum, although presumably there would be nothing to stop students from trying them if they wanted to.

    The alleged "no-touch push" incident seems to have been as controversial within Systema circles as it was here, subject to more or less wild speculation. Either way, again, this was a notable and isolated incident, not "Systema dogma".

    Etc., see a large number of earlier posts in the previous Systema threads for details.

    Several senior Systemists have commented to the effect that, "in the early days", Systema attracted more than its share of kooks. Perhaps they were responsible for some of the outlandish claims that appeared online.

    You should also note that the various Systema forums seem to be open-access; provided they stick to the rules, anyone who wants to post can do so, rather like the Bullshido.net forums.

    Obviously, posts appearing in these forums do not necessarily reflect the views of the forum moderators, let alone the "dogma" of any organisation(s) those people are affiliated with. One might as well cite the posts from the "Grand Celestial Do" people as being representative of Bullshido.net dogma, because they appeared in this forum.

    Ultimately, everyone will believe exactly what they want to believe, and will pursue their own agendas. My original agenda was that I was intrigued enough by "what Systema claims" to do a bit of digging. I've encountered both pro- and anti-Systema spin from many different parties.

    These forum debates are fun, and they can be useful in helping to define and refine one's own interests, but obviously they don't carry a lot of weight in terms of making an informed assessment.
  9. kiai_killer is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2006 5:28am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BumFu
    Rumor has it that the Strikes tape claims you shouldn't hit straight on because it harms you. Any truth to this?
    I'm pretty sure it says if you use too many straight punches you go blind. I would have probably checked out Systema personally if I hadn't seen this debacle. Now I don't have to...

    Strikes that heal, there was lots of that kinda stuff on the video, like punching a guy and then "taking the punch away" after it hit. Also giving someone energy from a strike and strikes that stay in the body and move around causing more damage. Uh huh.

    I know the standard retort is you cant judge a style just by a single video. I'd say thats true unless it's the video discussed above. That Vlad guy looks like a fighter and seems like he doesnt really talk about the no-touch KO BS, etc. but the other guy is just oozing out the 'fat grandmaster' vibe.

    It almost seems like they do it on purpose so they can appeal to a wider audience.
    Straight punches make you go blind. More damage is done to a criminals nervous system when they are struck. Strikes that make you stronger. All this and more systema douchebaggery:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eak-m2iwI7Q

    NEW BONUS REEL, feat RobG at it again! lol:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ
  10. mrblackmagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2006 7:09am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BumFu
    Is that the UK footage of the guy getting punched in the face? Looked like an all too common mistake in MA where you drop your hand to guard your ass when kicking. Genge did a nice job capitalizing on the mistake, though it's hard to see how that legitimizes Systema given the other info.
    One and the same. There is actually more footage of him and several other systema guys fighting. The only problem is that Genge is the only guy that has it.
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