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  1. mrblackmagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 12:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: yang taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think he's saying on September 16 will be the salvation or the end of systema as we know it.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 12:24pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    0
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Omega,

    thanks, it's good to see someone making a serious effort towards this sort of analysis.

    Obviously I disagree with some of your assessments, and I'll be happy to discuss that if you like. In the short term, could you clarify which materials you were using towards your report? For example, did you actually study the "Questions Answered" DVD itself or just the promotional excerpt? Which of the Systema instructional DVDs were you working from?
    Let's see, besides my own experiance and two of the other instructors who had direct experiance:

    Knife Defence by Vladamir VAsiliev 1995
    Russian Martial Art The System: [strikes] Mikail Ryabko and Vladimir VAsiliev 2003
    ....I've got the other 3 videos at my studio so I can't give you the title's exactly but they were self-defense, another knife, and ground work.

    With all due respect to you Dldr. I won't bother to take a look at the "Questions answered" Richard Grannon is not a credible source. I won't believe anything he says. Essentially he's full of ****. I on the other hand am a MMA "Cage Fighter", and one of the other instructors does teach guys to "Cage Fight".

    I shall try this in another way, the system uses a lot of silly non sense to get people to relax, and move in a specific way. It reminded us of some Aikido techniques, remember we had an Aikijitsu instructo with us, great nothing wrong with that. Some strategies, arguable will give you that. Systema claims simple to learn. Wrong. Systema claims light strikes that hit the internal organs. Wrong, they're called sucker punches on nerve clusters.

    There was one exibition of breathing M. Ryabko striking a student until he caught him off breathing or struck him where he wasn't ready to take the blow. Yay, thumbs up, no secret here dude but it's nothing mystical. Mr. Grannon couldn't figure this **** out? Some expert he is.

    You want credit here it is:
    Mikhail Ryabko can really hit, he hits very effectively: Using the exact same principals I see in many other striking systems.
    Can systema grapple: yes, not super well but better than average
    Can Systema strike: the wave technique is crap but they strike
    Can Systema spar: I saw 2 of my lower belts get sucker punched by the systema guy who came and sparred with us a few years ago. I busted up laughing as my senior belts tried to coach them. I was like, let him do it it's their style. If it works it works. I told the kid that's cools stuff but don't do it against an experianced guy. He called out my senior guy, a brown belt. My brown belt killed him. He then called me out, kudos to him. Long story short, he broke his hand 'whipping' it over to hit me on the head.

    Can Systema guys defend hand to hand: They use typical military self-defense tactics that I've seen taught to Hong Kong Police, US Police, and UK Police. Sure why not.

    Can they defend knife: It's crap, it will get you killed, I can't stress this **** enough. Nothing will convince me otherwise. I'd rather take knife defense from an ATA Taekwondo Blackbelt.

    Now if it wasn't for the fact that systema likes to spout out a load of bullshit about its capabilities I would've given them a low score on the bullshido meter, maybe a 4. But since I've seen, heard, read and experianced all this **** I give it about an 8. There's no reason to brainwash you guys into believing some of these strategies, imo teach them the simple stuff first and then go into this theoretical crap. Maybe you guys do but it's still just *bullshit.

    Effectiveness, again if it wasn't for all the other crap I would've rated it quite high. But you mire yourselves down with **** that really reminds me of games I give the kiddies to have fun with during class. So I give it a 4. Without the crap I would've given it a 6. Nobody ever scores a 10, there is no fool proof martial art.

    Disagree with me all you want. If you do you only prove everybody right. I looked at this with neutral eyes and after the 3rd video I could barely take it anymore. We practiced for days with this stuff having students who haven't seen the videos attack us and see if we could even get minor reaction out of them. None. We had over 130 years of experiance in that room for 2 weeks on and off. Sorry, failing grade.
  3. RobP is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 12:25pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Who's stopping you going to try it? Not us.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 12:31pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh this again. He tries to conatct a systema practioner in his area. No response.

    Suddenly, it is come to the UK.

    That is what I thought.
  5. mrblackmagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 12:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: yang taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The answer is always on the other shore. Better go ahead an book a flight on orbits.
    Last edited by mrblackmagic; 7/02/2006 12:41pm at .
  6. Backdraft is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 2:44pm


     Style: Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very cool, Omega. And damn professional too. Thank you.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 4:11pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omega,

    this is beside the main point of the thread, but for the record, I really don't think that Mr. Grannon ever claimed to be a cage fighter. According to his posts here, his website and everything else I can find on the Net, he presents himself as a reality-based self defense instructor who uses the illegal moves from MMA as the basis for one of his courses. His "MMA background" was detailed as training in BJJ and Muay Thai and he mentioned that he had used BJJ in streetfights while working as a bouncer, but I can't find anything to suggest that he is a cage fighter or that he teaches cage fighting.

    I still think it's a pity that you and he argued on the other thread; under other circumstances, you might have found some common ground. Anyway, since his DVD and your research study are the only assessments of Systema by "outsiders" that we can refer to, it's all useful in the long run.

    I don't propose to argue your assessments of the Systema techniques themselves. I haven't seen some of the DVDs you were working from and it sounds as if you had a good team who took the study seriously, with mixed results.

    When you have the chance to check, could you confirm whether Hand to Hand was among the DVDs you studied? I ask because it was strongly recommended to me as "the place to start" when looking at Systema instructional material, presenting the ground rules and principles that the subsequent DVDs build upon.

    I shall try this in another way, the system uses a lot of silly non sense to get people to relax, and move in a specific way. It reminded us of some Aikido techniques, remember we had an Aikijitsu instructo with us, great nothing wrong with that. Some strategies, arguable will give you that.
    I know that a lot of the exercises look silly, but what is the base-level objection? Is it that you feel that people could accomplish the same/better results without doing these exercises?

    There was one exibition of breathing M. Ryabko striking a student until he caught him off breathing or struck him where he wasn't ready to take the blow. Yay, thumbs up, no secret here dude but it's nothing mystical. Mr. Grannon couldn't figure this **** out? Some expert he is.
    I think that when Mr. Grannon was talking about being "in a state of confusion" he was specifically referring to being overwhelmed by all the hidden shots, rather than to the physiological effect of being hit when/where you're not expecting it. Anyway, yes, nothing mystical! Again, I'll post my review of the Questions Answered DVD when it arrives.

    Can you be more specific about the "theoretical crap"? I'm trying to get a handle on whether you're talking about the techniques, the exercises, the strategies or the concepts (or all of the above, bits and pieces, etc).
    Last edited by DdlR; 7/02/2006 4:18pm at .
  8. Guerrero is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 5:39pm


     Style: Muay Thai & "t3h gr4ppl3"

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    Can they defend knife: It's crap, it will get you killed, I can't stress this **** enough. Nothing will convince me otherwise. I'd rather take knife defense from an ATA Taekwondo Blackbelt.
    Amen to that, brother.
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 7:56pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Omega,

    this is beside the main point of the thread, but for the record, I really don't think that Mr. Grannon ever claimed to be a cage fighter. According to his posts here, his website and everything else I can find on the Net, he presents himself as a reality-based self defense instructor who uses the illegal moves from MMA as the basis for one of his courses. His "MMA background" was detailed as training in BJJ and Muay Thai and he mentioned that he had used BJJ in streetfights while working as a bouncer, but I can't find anything to suggest that he is a cage fighter or that he teaches cage fighting.
    'From the Cage to the Street'- No but he does insinuate it and systema in my opinion tries to ride it.

    I still think it's a pity that you and he argued on the other thread; under other circumstances, you might have found some common ground. Anyway, since his DVD and your research study are the only assessments of Systema by "outsiders" that we can refer to, it's all useful in the long run.
    I doubt it. I really don't see him as credible in anyway shape or form. IMO he's an frightened *asshole.

    I don't propose to argue your assessments of the Systema techniques themselves. I haven't seen some of the DVDs you were working from and it sounds as if you had a good team who took the study seriously, with mixed results.
    We didn't have mixed results. The consensus was fairly unanimous.

    When you have the chance to check, could you confirm whether Hand to Hand was among the DVDs you studied? I ask because it was strongly recommended to me as "the place to start" when looking at Systema instructional material, presenting the ground rules and principles that the subsequent DVDs build upon.
    The hand to hand was one of the worse out of the set. The best out of the set was striking.



    I know that a lot of the exercises look silly, but what is the base-level objection? Is it that you feel that people could accomplish the same/better results without doing these exercises?
    Yes and no, complicated question. I see why but it developes bad habits. It's like sitting in a horse stance punching in air. Teaches good punching mechanics but that's a bad place to put your hands and you won't know how to hit until you actually hit something.



    I think that when Mr. Grannon was talking about being "in a state of confusion" he was specifically referring to being overwhelmed by all the hidden shots, rather than to the physiological effect of being hit when/where you're not expecting it. Anyway, yes, nothing mystical! Again, I'll post my review of the Questions Answered DVD when it arrives.
    Because he wasn't really fighting him, but please let us know your results, if you want stream them to me. I'm always willing to retract.

    Can you be more specific about the "theoretical crap"? I'm trying to get a handle on whether you're talking about the techniques, the exercises, the strategies or the concepts (or all of the above, bits and pieces, etc).
    All the above. The only thing I saw that is fairly universal is relax as you punch. Another metaphor I'd like to use is taking the slow road to China. You could use the straight route or the scenic route. You'll end up exactly where you want but was it worth it. I don't believe for a second you are not a systema person Dldr. But in the long run I don't care. I think if you took systema you'd eventually learn some useful things. I'd recommend it over WTF and ATA TKD if that's worth anything for you. And truthfull I did see why experianced people would take this and find value with it. They were bored and they wanted a new way to train.
  10. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/02/2006 8:37pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omega,

    When you and your students sparred with the Systema guys, did they fall into the "Crappy Kickboxing" method that a lot of systems fall into, or did they maintain the principles, stances, strikes, etc...that they work on?

    Meaning, did they look like "Systema guys doing kickboxing", or did they really look like "Systema Guys"?
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