Thread: Final Report: Systema-
5/17/2009 8:52am, #1441
<<<It matters if you want to avoid the possibility of falsely accusing someone, let alone of demanding that they prove they can do something they'd never claimed to be able to do in the first place.>>>
Sir, A is A. Things are what they are. A table is not a bed just because you could sleep on it, and **** is not chocolate just because its brown and you could eat it.
When you have people flying all over the room without touching them you are saying something. You can attempt to spin that message, but it won't do. To move people without touching them requires a violation of the laws of physic's as we know them. UNLESS there is co-operation in play that would not be there if you attempted the same with someone not in your cult... or class.
<<<Perhaps there is; I'm assuming that the participants are students (?) In that case, their whole apprenticeship may have served as an induction.>>
In which case, my point about "cult" is made. In either, it requires the person to we willing to "go along" with the event. We can attach many interesting terms to it, such as hypnosis, but being willing is the key here. A real attacker would not be.
<<<Good point, but I think you missed part of mine; again, discounting the likelihood of actual telekinesis, I meant that I was more interested in the mechanics of the phenomenon (whether it represents conscious collusion, unconscious collusion, etc.) This again begs the question of what, specifically, they were claiming to be able to demonstrate.>>>
Here sir is your problem; I do not care what they "claim." The only issue is what is really happening. People claim all manner of things, those claims are usually not correct. I can see with my own eyes what is happening. I do not need to hear a fatuous explanation to understand what must be happening. To wit, the person "flying" is jumping. That settled we could spend a great deal of time wondering why they are jumping. To what end? No real attacker or opponent will jump for you, so it is an exercise much akin to angels dancing on pin heads.
<<<You're right in that I can think of a number of ways to make people fall down without touching them and without resorting to the supernatural.>>
No sir, not by the tape. Yes, we could shoot them, hit them with a bat, blast them with a water cannon, and on and on. None of those things are on the tape. There is only ONE way to make a person fall down in the manner on the video, the person falling is doing so of their own free will. Were this not the case, they would have that million dollars Randi offered.
<<<What makes you think that I'm apologizing?>>>
I do not think it, I proclaim it as fact, as would anyone with reason reading your posts. Your desperate hunt for some "reason" of "logic" here proves it. I say Bullshido, and be done with it. All else is flummery.
5/17/2009 8:58am, #1442Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.
Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)
5/22/2009 7:23pm, #1443
5/22/2009 8:25pm, #1444
Now this is a very skilled and strong man that I don't think I'd have any hope of beating, but I found his answer so incredibly odd. Like, dude, "You train to throw sharpened-shovels at a tree=torso target? That's not crude?"
That attitude is fine for someone with the sport and military experience he has, but how do you ever expect to convey combatives to a civilian without the most basic of tests of a fighting style, which is to fight?
I'll never get that part of it...Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
-Mentat Text Two (dicto)
5/22/2009 8:58pm, #1445
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- USA-formerly NE, currently Midwest
5/22/2009 10:33pm, #1446
I really like all of the people I know who train in Systema, I don't want to troll them here or anywhere else. I just don't understand how this is a complete system if there isn't any way to prove it so...Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
-Mentat Text Two (dicto)
5/22/2009 11:09pm, #1447
Dude, Bullshido, from which Systema derives, is a complete system. Check the instructors' bank statements for proof.
5/23/2009 2:17pm, #1448
5/27/2009 1:35pm, #1449
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- Seattle, WA
TheOtherSerge raises a good point about "complete system".
Systema is focused on developing fundamentals - breathing, relaxation, form & movement. These are usually worked in an environment that emphasizes combatives rather than competition with common scenarios being multiple and/or armed opponents.
In this environment you will never learn how to clinch and throw a well trained judo or sambo player. That is a very different and specific exercise and skill set. But you certainly do learn how to hit, be hit, fall, and move among a bunch of people who are trying to hurt you.
The general/fundamental nature of the primary skill set is highly applicable in learning other arts and has proved to be highly desirable to practitioners of other arts looking to expand. This is why such highly skilled practitioners as Val Riazanov and TheOtherSerge's big friend find value in the training.
So, getting into the semantics now: Systema is not a complete system in the sense of judo/sambo. They are really not the same thing. I think of systema as an operating system (I think this is DdlR's analogy) in contrast to a sambo application. In a nutshell, it is a very broad and general training framework for martial arts and combatives rather than a specific skill-set intended to maximize performance for a particular application. That said, we do work with a lot of contact and we do develop skills.
but this has all been said before
qualifier: regarding sambo as an application. This is an imperfect analogy. I understand that form, movement, breathing etc are a significant component of samba & judo training. I only wish to emphasize that there is relatively more emphasis on these aspects in systema training and relatively less on technique or specific skill development.
Last edited by EricH; 5/27/2009 1:41pm at .
5/27/2009 3:06pm, #1450
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