Final Report: Systema-

[Mtripp]

<<<It matters if you want to avoid the possibility of falsely accusing someone, let alone of demanding that they prove they can do something they'd never claimed to be able to do in the first place.>>>

Sir, A is A. Things are what they are. A table is not a bed just because you could sleep on it, and **** is not chocolate just because its brown and you could eat it.

When you have people flying all over the room without touching them you are saying something. You can attempt to spin that message, but it won't do. To move people without touching them requires a violation of the laws of physic's as we know them. UNLESS there is co-operation in play that would not be there if you attempted the same with someone not in your cult... or class.

<<<Perhaps there is; I'm assuming that the participants are students (?) In that case, their whole apprenticeship may have served as an induction.>>

In which case, my point about "cult" is made. In either, it requires the person to we willing to "go along" with the event. We can attach many interesting terms to it, such as hypnosis, but being willing is the key here. A real attacker would not be.

<<<Good point, but I think you missed part of mine; again, discounting the likelihood of actual telekinesis, I meant that I was more interested in the mechanics of the phenomenon (whether it represents conscious collusion, unconscious collusion, etc.) This again begs the question of what, specifically, they were claiming to be able to demonstrate.>>>

Here sir is your problem; I do not care what they "claim." The only issue is what is really happening. People claim all manner of things, those claims are usually not correct. I can see with my own eyes what is happening. I do not need to hear a fatuous explanation to understand what must be happening. To wit, the person "flying" is jumping. That settled we could spend a great deal of time wondering why they are jumping. To what end? No real attacker or opponent will jump for you, so it is an exercise much akin to angels dancing on pin heads.

<<<You're right in that I can think of a number of ways to make people fall down without touching them and without resorting to the supernatural.>>

No sir, not by the tape. Yes, we could shoot them, hit them with a bat, blast them with a water cannon, and on and on. None of those things are on the tape. There is only ONE way to make a person fall down in the manner on the video, the person falling is doing so of their own free will. Were this not the case, they would have that million dollars Randi offered.

<<<What makes you think that I'm apologizing?>>>

I do not think it, I proclaim it as fact, as would anyone with reason reading your posts. Your desperate hunt for some "reason" of "logic" here proves it. I say Bullshido, and be done with it. All else is flummery.

[DdlR]

In which case, my point about "cult" is made. In either, it requires the person to we willing to "go along" with the event. We can attach many interesting terms to it, such as hypnosis, but being willing is the key here. A real attacker would not be.

Well, you've seen the video - is that the claim that was made, that this is a psychic self defense technique to be used against real attackers?

[BackFistMonkey]

As I mentioned a few posts back, I'm not saying that there is/was no pretense of psychic BS in the Vasiliev/Ryabko camp, but I haven't seen any such pretense yet; I have seen a large number of video clips that have been (understandably) misinterpreted as psychic BS.

Like I said even if it is all misinterpretations and innocent errors why is there no video of Systema being used in a live manner and against other proven martial art(ist)s?

[theotherserge]

Like I said even if it is all misinterpretations and innocent errors why is there no video of Systema being used in a live manner and against other proven martial art(ist)s?

One explanation I heard was from a Systema dude who is also a Judo BB and MoS in Sambo. He said that cage-fighting was beneath him, that it was crude and base. Something like this.

Now this is a very skilled and strong man that I don't think I'd have any hope of beating, but I found his answer so incredibly odd. Like, dude, "You train to throw sharpened-shovels at a tree=torso target? That's not crude?"

That attitude is fine for someone with the sport and military experience he has, but how do you ever expect to convey combatives to a civilian without the most basic of tests of a fighting style, which is to fight?

I'll never get that part of it...

[Little Lamb]

One explanation I heard was from a Systema dude who is also a Judo BB and MoS in Sambo. He said that cage-fighting was beneath him, that it was crude and base. Something like this.

Even if your friend were to cage fight, how would you know if his technique, strength, speed, stamina, skill, etc., resulted from studying Systema or Judo or Sambo?

We would need to see a cage fight with someone who had studied only Systema.

[theotherserge]

Even if your friend were to cage fight, how would you know if his technique, strength, speed, stamina, skill, etc., resulted from studying Systema or Judo or Sambo?

We would need to see a cage fight with someone who had studied only Systema.

well, that's part #2 of my complaint re:Systema. How is it a fighting style of its own if it hasn't been proven effective? Srsly. The fact that he is a big dude and a known badass in other styles reinforces my impression. Same goes for Vlad Vasiliev who is a skilled boxer and himself a former Soviet military guy. Pretty much any noteworthy Systema instructor already has a deep combatives/competetive fighting/martial arts background.

I really like all of the people I know who train in Systema, I don't want to troll them here or anywhere else. I just don't understand how this is a complete system if there isn't any way to prove it so...

[kwoww]

Dude, Bullshido, from which Systema derives, is a complete system. Check the instructors' bank statements for proof.

[Mtripp]

Like I said even if it is all misinterpretations and innocent errors why is there no video of Systema being used in a live manner and against other proven martial art(ist)s?

Or, why all the insane stuff on Youtube...

...using your baseball cap for a gun disarm?????!!!!!!

[EricH]

TheOtherSerge raises a good point about "complete system".

Systema is focused on developing fundamentals - breathing, relaxation, form & movement. These are usually worked in an environment that emphasizes combatives rather than competition with common scenarios being multiple and/or armed opponents.

In this environment you will never learn how to clinch and throw a well trained judo or sambo player. That is a very different and specific exercise and skill set. But you certainly do learn how to hit, be hit, fall, and move among a bunch of people who are trying to hurt you.

The general/fundamental nature of the primary skill set is highly applicable in learning other arts and has proved to be highly desirable to practitioners of other arts looking to expand. This is why such highly skilled practitioners as Val Riazanov and TheOtherSerge's big friend find value in the training.

So, getting into the semantics now: Systema is not a complete system in the sense of judo/sambo. They are really not the same thing. I think of systema as an operating system (I think this is DdlR's analogy) in contrast to a sambo application. In a nutshell, it is a very broad and general training framework for martial arts and combatives rather than a specific skill-set intended to maximize performance for a particular application. That said, we do work with a lot of contact and we do develop skills.

but this has all been said before

qualifier: regarding sambo as an application. This is an imperfect analogy. I understand that form, movement, breathing etc are a significant component of samba & judo training. I only wish to emphasize that there is relatively more emphasis on these aspects in systema training and relatively less on technique or specific skill development.

[TheMarquis]

**** is not chocolate just because its brown and you could eat it.

Just for that statement alone.... +REP

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