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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/15/2009 9:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Lamb View Post
    True. I am jumping to conclusions. But I stick to my conclusion until the context you mentioned materializes. As I said before, chicanery is the most likely based on this video I saw. I am holding open the possibility that other evidence will put the entire excerpt in a less mystical light, but I cannot imagine what context could possibly explain the instructors words as translate by the student.
    I already offered what seems to me to be a plausible explanation; that Vasiliev was demonstrating the type of gestures, tone of voice, etc. necessary to induce a state of suggestibility in his translator. I don't know if you watched the Derren Brown clips that I linked to, but if not, I suggest that you do; in each instance, Brown uses a combination of similar techniques to induce a hypnotic state in his subjects, with the result that they apparently believe themselves to be frozen in one spot, staggering drunk, etc.

    The central question remains; discounting the implausibility that Vasiliev actually causes the translator to fall over through telekinesis, is the demonstration:

    1) a matter of deliberate collusion, i.e., a con perpetrated by Vasilev and the translator upon their audience

    2) a hypnotic/psych-out technique masked as a demonstration of telekinesis

    3) simply an advanced psych-out technique, explainable in psychological rather than magical terms?

    In other words, what was the actual claim made?

    To answer that, we'd need to see the demo in its original context and hear what was said and done beforehand. Going by all the other footage of Vasiliev's demos that I've seen over the years, I'm guessing option 3.
  2. BackFistMonkey is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 2:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    YouTube - Systema Sparring

    ... but this is going over very old ground, for me anyway.
    ... that was a trip down memory lane . I too have seen most of that footage already .

    If I forget about the mentalism , religious , and magical aspects of Systema and discount it all as over the top marketing and innocent translation errors ...

    ... a large number of my reservations and concerns about this system stem from the fact that those clips are the best examples of grappling and strking in a somewhat live situation the whole group can muster .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  3. Mtripp is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 3:39pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not really getting anywhere here. So, for the record, Troopa is VERY plain. Someone around here has it, promised to post it, and we are still waiting. Clearly he and Moose are related. In any case, once that video is viewed, your position of "misquote" is going to fail. They clearly claim to be teaching how to move people without touching them. Once caught, they change their comments.

    I really do want to warn you that Troopa is going to cause a firestorm. I understand you believe what you are saying to be the truth. Troopa will show that you are in error.
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 4:02pm

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    OK, I'm looking forward to seeing it. In the short term, is the claim "we are moving people with magic/chi/telekinesis"?
  5. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 4:47pm

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    Ummm.... if I told you, you would not believe me. Its why I am unhappy that its not on You Tube by now.

    When you take two women by the hand and turn them around in a circle, and as you do a group of people fall down (only one of the insane demo's), what would you say the claim is?
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 4:58pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I would say would be conjecture on my part, which is why I'm interested in specifically what is being claimed in the video. If the claim is "we are moving these people by magic" then let's all join hands and call BS. If the claim is "this is an interesting phenomenon and we don't know how it works", then we're on shakier ground. If the claim is "this is an example of groupthink/hypnosis/suggestibility" then we'd be dead wrong in accusing them of claiming magical powers.

    I'm much more interested in the phenomenon itself than in the ethics or beliefs of Ryabko and Vasiliev. That said, I've seen an awful lot of their stuff on video and most - not all, but most - of the controversies are easily explicable as misinterpretations of what is being shown, due to the viewer/critic lacking crucial context.

    So, hanging out for "Troopa" ...
  7. Mtripp is offline
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    Choked out by Gene Lebell

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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 6:19pm

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    <<<What I would say would be conjecture on my part, which is why I'm interested in specifically what is being claimed in the video.>>>

    Frankly I am not sure why it matters. Show me water flowing up hill and you can "explain" it any way you wish. The problem is, water doesn't flow uphill. As such, something else is at work here.


    <<<If the claim is "we are moving these people by magic" then let's all join hands and call BS. If the claim is "this is an interesting phenomenon and we don't know how it works", then we're on shakier ground. If the claim is "this is an example of groupthink/hypnosis/suggestibility" then we'd be dead wrong in accusing them of claiming magical powers.>>>

    I do not agree. You see, something is moving those people. Either known to them or unknown. I have no doubt that they could spin with those women all day long, and I would not be knocked down or moved. Moreover, having done hundreds of hypnotic shows in my life, there would have to be an induction phase that is missing from all of these "events."

    <<<I'm much more interested in the phenomenon itself than in the ethics or beliefs of Ryabko and Vasiliev.>>>

    Likely why people like Uri Geller so easily fooled scientists into thinking psychic abilities are real. Who they are is important to our testing.

    <<<That said, I've seen an awful lot of their stuff on video and most - not all, but most - of the controversies are easily explicable as misinterpretations of what is being shown, due to the viewer/critic lacking crucial context. >>>

    I think the law of identity applies here. Moving people without touching them is bull crap. You can attempt to explain away that fact many different ways; but people falling down, when they are not being touched, is bull crap.

    <<<So, hanging out for "Troopa" ...>>>

    Using my psychic skills I say we will get more of the apologist stance when you do....
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2009 6:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtripp View Post

    Frankly I am not sure why it matters. Show me water flowing up hill and you can "explain" it any way you wish. The problem is, water doesn't flow uphill. As such, something else is at work here.
    It matters if you want to avoid the possibility of falsely accusing someone, let alone of demanding that they prove they can do something they'd never claimed to be able to do in the first place.

    I do not agree. You see, something is moving those people. Either known to them or unknown. I have no doubt that they could spin with those women all day long, and I would not be knocked down or moved. Moreover, having done hundreds of hypnotic shows in my life, there would have to be an induction phase that is missing from all of these "events."
    Perhaps there is; I'm assuming that the participants are students (?) In that case, their whole apprenticeship may have served as an induction.

    Likely why people like Uri Geller so easily fooled scientists into thinking psychic abilities are real. Who they are is important to our testing.
    Good point, but I think you missed part of mine; again, discounting the likelihood of actual telekinesis, I meant that I was more interested in the mechanics of the phenomenon (whether it represents conscious collusion, unconscious collusion, etc.) This again begs the question of what, specifically, they were claiming to be able to demonstrate.

    I think the law of identity applies here. Moving people without touching them is bull crap. You can attempt to explain away that fact many different ways; but people falling down, when they are not being touched, is bull crap.
    You're right in that I can think of a number of ways to make people fall down without touching them and without resorting to the supernatural.

    <<<So, hanging out for "Troopa" ...>>>

    Using my psychic skills I say we will get more of the apologist stance when you do....
    What makes you think that I'm apologizing?
  9. Ken Pfrenger is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2009 6:33am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Mark...I swear Moose and i are not related!

    DdLR, I am the one who has the tape, I sent it to Kirk to get transfered and you know how much he has on his plate.

    I did watch it before I sent it out. Once he get's it done and you get a chance to see it you will have no doubt of the bullshido being displayed on it.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2009 7:59am

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    Small world!

    As I mentioned a few posts back, I'm not saying that there is/was no pretense of psychic BS in the Vasiliev/Ryabko camp, but I haven't seen any such pretense yet; I have seen a large number of video clips that have been (understandably) misinterpreted as psychic BS.

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