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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 9:03pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've looked into Systema history in some depth over the past several years and IMO the "Systema is descended from ancient Russian folk culture/Cossack warriors/ROC monks" line is mostly wishful thinking of behalf of Ryabko et al. This is qualified by the facts that:

    - there is evidently a strong movement within modern Russian society to "forget" about the excesses perpetrated under Communism, particularly the Stalinist regime, and to emphasize links to pre-October Revolutionary Russian folk culture. We have the example of the Russian Minister of Justice appearing on (of all things) an American TV documentary about Systema, and saying "Russian martial arts has a 1000 year old history. We believe that this return to our old roots is a symbol of Russia's revival." This is re-formatting a fighting style that was previously a classified state secret as a cultural export.

    - the matrix of martial arts and combat sports that very likely did form the basis of modern Systema (including Kadochnikov and other styles as well as Ryabko's) demonstrably did include a range of traditional Russian wrestling styles, exercise methods etc. Some of these had simply been perpetuated from time immemorial in rural centers, others had been preserved in the Russian military academies of the 1800s. In that limited sense, yes, Systema probably does "have roots that reach back into ancient history" but to say that feudal era Cossacks were doing anything that resembles modern Systema is to exercise a very healthy dose of retroactive imagination.

    I don't know how Mikhail Ryabko is able to link Systema per se to the Russian Orthodox tradition, except in the sense that yes, obviously, many warriors and soldiers throughout Russian history were members of the ROC. I know that Ryabko is a devoutly religious man, so it's possible that he simply interpreted parallels between ROC spirituality and his Systema training as evidence of a direct historical connection.

    My own theory is that he wants to use ROC teachings about "being a good person" etc. to provide a positive ethical platform for Systema training, which seems to have been closely associated with some very sinister people and activities until relatively recently.
  2. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2007 3:05am

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOOF
    Generally speaking, historians and cultural anthropologists consider Russians to be the primary inheritors of Byzantine culture
    Generally speaking, you should commit suicide.
  3. Choke_u_silly is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2007 8:15am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: brazilian jiu jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Systema is not actually a system like other martial arts. The main components of it are staying completely relaxed during combat (even while being hit) and maintaining proper breathing at all times. Even the incredibly powerful strikes come from these two things. So if you remove the name systema, then it is extremely likely that any experienced warrior of any ancient culture used "systema." Anyone who remains calm and survives against someone trying to take their life is using an aspect of what is being taught in systema. So it is quite possible that the Spartan culture used something very similar to this (this was mentioned earlier).
    If a person is beaten and combat tested from the time they are young, it is almost impossible not to develop these traits. The reason Fedor is so badass is because he is always calm and throws loose ass punches that explode on his opponent. I'm not saying Fedor studies systema, but it is quite the coincidence that the fighter who stays the most calm and loose in all of mma is the king of the sport.
    People get too sidetracked with nitpicking little details such as proving that Byzantine culture wasn't inherited by the Russians or that systema has religious ties. Every martial art is tied to a religion somehow. The point is that the science that lays the foundation of systema is absolutely correct. Proper breathing keeps the body and mind relaxed and out of a chaos zone and relaxed strikes (that turn the body part striking into DEAD weight) do much more damage tensed, structured strikes. There is a lot more to it than that of course, but plz people this is a complicated enought thread without all the stupid arguments.
    Who cares if Mikhail's favorite food is pizza or Vlad's favorite pastime is riverdance. The mechanics of systema can be proven in a grade 9 physics class. So shut up an try it.
  4. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2007 10:52am


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    Easy Vin. Calm. Exhale. It's just martial arts buddy. He's not deflowering your sister during half time at the super bowl.
    Im calm, very calm, got use to Kungy a long time ago. In factt I find his posts useful, even if they are funny at times. Some of his points are even valid.
    Just my upbringing, some lines u should not cross and speaking ill of the dead is one of them. Call it old fashion values.

    vin
  5. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2007 4:11pm

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The dead have feelings too...
  6. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2007 9:45pm


     Style: *********

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When speaking of systema it is vitally important to clarify which systema you are dealing with. Systema is simply an abreviation for systema samozashcity, which simply means System of Self-defense.

    Here are some examples commonly found in Russia:
    Tae Kwon Do systema samozashcity aka TKD
    Kung-Fu systema samozashcity aka Kungfu
    Skobar systema samozashcity aka Skobar
    Buza systema samozashcity aka Buza
    Systema Samozashcity Bez Oruzhiya aka Sambo
    Spiridonov systema samozashcity aka Samoz
    Kadochnikov systema samozashcity aka Kadochnikov system
    Ryabko systema samozashcity aka Ryabko system(also claims to be THE SYSTEMA)

    Buza and Skobar of the list above Buza and Skobar are the only two that pre-date the october revolution. Here is a vid of an old Buza practioner
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu-I-KDCaJs




    and here are a few vids of Skobar
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0nk2ZPcFrs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0twHS6up9IM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM97ak9w4dM

    It is from these two, Spiridinovian and much of his own understanding of Biomechanics that Kadochnikov developped his system.

    Ryabko's claims that his system goes back to the Byzantine empire is quite questionable, one it looks like nothing traditionally russian(aka Buza or Skobar). Second Pankration was the ancient Greek(aka Byzantine) MA. If you look into the Orthodox church you will find that the Byzantine church is part of the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Russian. It is thus committed to Greek culture and if it were to promote an MA it would be a Greek one... such as Pankration.
  7. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2007 1:38pm


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is described as dirty boxing on Youtube?
  8. D Dempsey is offline
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    Monkey Knife Fight!

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2007 3:31pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They might be the almost the same thing. The title was dirty boxing but everything else was in Russian so I don't really know.
  9. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/26/2007 3:54pm


     Style: *********

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dirty boxing is more of a general description than a MA. For example Kickboxing. However there are at least ten sub-styles that fall under the general heading of Kickboxing including MT, Savate, and American Kickboxing. See this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing
    The definition of dirty boxing is boxing that deviates from the rules of traditional boxing. So for example last night's UFC Champ Randy put out this vid on dirty boxing:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw04qkqTeZs

    Notice the style differences. In the American MMA world dirty boxing is clinch boxing.

    Skobar is a style of RMA that was for the most part held strictly to fisticuffs. Contestants used to compete on iced over lakes and streams. Sometimes as individuals and sometimes in groups known as wall fighting(thats another discussion). However what was allowed as far as rules go would be considered "dirty boxing." Here are some of the reasons 1) It was bare knuckle 2)Spiking the opponents arms was allowed 3) Elbow strikes to the face and throat were(and in modern competition still are) allowed. 4)Knees to the body were allowed, kicks for the most part were out(you could kick but it was mostly discouraged because... well the competitions were on ice and if you fell you lost)

    In traditional competition(I am a little out of the loop as to how modern competition has developed) there was no scoring, there was only win or lose. You won by knocking down, or knockingout(though this was knocking down so I guess its the same thing) the opponent.

    Group competitions, or wall fights, were more interesting. Here groups, and at times entirely villages lined up. They would decide on the number of people allowed per line. Again if you were knocked down you were out... the groups would then fight until one group lost all of their lines.
  10. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2007 7:02pm


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    Dirty boxing is more of a general description than a MA. For example Kickboxing. However there are at least ten sub-styles that fall under the general heading of Kickboxing including MT, Savate, and American Kickboxing. See this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing
    The definition of dirty boxing is boxing that deviates from the rules of traditional boxing. So for example last night's UFC Champ Randy put out this vid on dirty boxing:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw04qkqTeZs

    Notice the style differences. In the American MMA world dirty boxing is clinch boxing.

    Skobar is a style of RMA that was for the most part held strictly to fisticuffs. Contestants used to compete on iced over lakes and streams. Sometimes as individuals and sometimes in groups known as wall fighting(thats another discussion). However what was allowed as far as rules go would be considered "dirty boxing." Here are some of the reasons 1) It was bare knuckle 2)Spiking the opponents arms was allowed 3) Elbow strikes to the face and throat were(and in modern competition still are) allowed. 4)Knees to the body were allowed, kicks for the most part were out(you could kick but it was mostly discouraged because... well the competitions were on ice and if you fell you lost)

    In traditional competition(I am a little out of the loop as to how modern competition has developed) there was no scoring, there was only win or lose. You won by knocking down, or knockingout(though this was knocking down so I guess its the same thing) the opponent.

    Group competitions, or wall fights, were more interesting. Here groups, and at times entirely villages lined up. They would decide on the number of people allowed per line. Again if you were knocked down you were out... the groups would then fight until one group lost all of their lines.
    So is this the stuff that Rykabo and Kad system comes from? Does it come from Skobar, buza, or was their another influence? The History of boxing is a long one, some would argue, Eygpt, Greece, Medieval England, 18th Century England/Ireland, to the present day. Bareknuckle fighting etc.

    UFC, Champ Randy, attributed a lot of his success, to his jab and hooks.

    Vin

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