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  1. systemavin is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 11:31am


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    Let's see, not only is Paul Genge physically unfit, but he's not a very competent fighter... tell me why we should bother with his systema dvds?

    http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/QAWEB.wmv

    Why bother with anything, curiousity, keeping an open mind. If you don't like it fine, just move on, if you like some of it, fine put it in the tool box. If you dont rate the Instructor fine, move on and train with somebody else. You never know were you will find that little nugget, it can turn up in all sorts of weird places.:bully:

    Vin
  2. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 11:36am


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
    Nope, this is what I look like.

    Is this Kungfoolss?

    Oh, sorry. If it were, I'd be dead too. :toothy12:
    Well you are special then arent u, speaking ill of the dead.:biblethum

    vin
  3. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 1:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by systemavin
    Well you are special then arent u, speaking ill of the dead.:biblethum

    vin
    I'm speaking ill of systema, the fact that a systema instructor died using systema in the last moments of his life is just a bonus.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  4. systemavin is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 4:57pm


     Style: Systema/ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I feel pity for you, and find your comments laughable. You got a wee willy or something, or finding it hard to come out of the closet? Being gay is okay, you should be proud to wear the badge. There is no bigger fool than one who is a fool to himself.

    vinny

    systemanorthwest.co.uk
  5. SFGOON is offline
    SFGOON's Avatar

    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 5:04pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Easy Vin. Calm. Exhale. It's just martial arts buddy. He's not deflowering your sister during half time at the super bowl.
  6. EricH is offline

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    199

    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 6:05pm


     Style: systema/RMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I recommend the Ignore function. anything else just excites him.
  7. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 6:49pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rivington;

    First off, here's a link. Bear in mind that it comes from Washington State University which is a fourth rate agricultural school in the middle of the desert, but it's all I could find.

    http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MA/BYZ.HTM

    This establishes a strong cultural link between the Byzantines and Russians who were to progenitors of systema. I'm not making it up.

    What I really wanted to establish in my posts was that systema has much deeper roots in Russian Orthodoxy and Slavic folklore than it does in secret Soviet labs. Of course, it's marketed as being from Soviet Secret Research, but that is mostly a marketing tool. Russian Orthodox monks invented and refined systema, not Communist Scientists. From whom did these monks inherit their knowledge? Byzantine Greeks. Granted, systema in it's modern form has as much semblance to historical versions on par with the similarities of Attic to Modern Greek, but it had to come from somewhere.

    Please give me a little more credit than assuming I got my history from "300." I refuse to see that movie as I feel it does both Leonidas and Xerxes a disservice. I got my knowledge the old fashioned way, by reading Herodotus.
  8. Rivington is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 7:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The one site you linked to doesn't say that Russia is the primary inheritor of Byzantine culture, simply that it was one of the inheritors of Byzantine culture.

    As far as marketing, you're holding the universe upside down. The Soviet stuff isn't marketing, the secret monk stuff is the marketing. It's Shaolin West, an ancient lineage, a meditative element, a dash of the mystic and exotic, just like innumerable versions of kung-fu. Few people want to be associated with the USSR, certainly not Russians in the West today.
  9. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 7:24pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do you base that assumption on? If you had looked at the myriad ads for RMA of any flavor, you'd see nearly nothing except military references. Most of the early adopters of systema were "Soldier of Fortune" dorks drawn to it precisely because of the ties to SPETZNAZ, and these elements are highly visible even today. Both Vladimir Vasiliev and Karadovich (and Pavel Tsatsouline for that matter) link themselves to SPETZNAZ. It's EXTREMELY effective niche marketing. Check it out.
  10. Rivington is online now
    Rivington's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2007 7:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taijiquan/Shuai-Chiao/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't make any assumptions, I've drawn a conclusion. I base my conclusion on the stone lack of evidence of any sort of Byzantine survival art at all. It only exists as marketing as there is no reality to it. Seriously, if there were a Byzantine survival then

    a. why doesn't it exist in Greece?
    b. why doesn't exist in Turkey or Asia minor?
    c. why are there no references to it in the literature of Orthodoxy?
    d. why are no references in the popular literature of Greece, Turkey, or any Slavic country?

    Really, that's all the exponents of systema have to do. Show us a line from a fifth century-to-nineteenth century play that mentions Systema or some proto-Systema art. Show us a manuscript which features a drawing of two Systema players. Hell, show us a Greek or Russian Orthodox monk who can fight in a Systema mode, either in history or in the modern era.

    One markets to early adopters in a very different way than one markets to larger audiences. Most people have no idea what SPETNAZ is, but they know what a monk is, or think they do. Early adopter marketing is generally about being slick, cool, and unknown, while mass marketing is often about tying the product to existing values. The claims tying Orthodoxy or Byzantium to Systema are just as accurate and just as much about marketing as the endless tying of various arts to Shaolin, or to the number of Christian martial arts group that have emerged in the American south and midwest.

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