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  1. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:08am

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think those type of techniques (first one) can work, it is just when people practice them in a set routine all day long without variation or making it more random that makes those techniques as useless as forms. I've seen stuff like the first one in Bas's self defense DABANGBANG vids as well as the BJJ for self defense book. But yea the second technique is really flamboyant.
  2. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:11am

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't see anything inherently wrong with those techniques. Converted Jo stick techniques. Which had come from converted spear techniques. The principles are sound - step off to the angle, or move in the direction of the swing.

    Considering the alternatives of something like an X block or something equally nutty, I don't think this stuff is neccessarily bad.

    Also remember that the combatives are pretty generic, and intended for 'other' things besides the actual techniques themselves. C'mon...nobody really thinks that spending 2 hours drilling bayonet drills is applicable to modern combat. It is geared more toward instilling an aggressive and confident mindset.

    Something else to consider - this stuff isn't meant for civilian application. Be serious. Someone comes at you with a bayonet, what are you supposed to do? RUN THE **** AWAY! But as a soldier you are not supposed to run away. You are expected to fight when told, no matter what the odds. In the extreme likelyhood you are somehow attacked with a bayonet you are supposed to do something...

    But looking at the new combative program you can say that it is quite modern. The integration of GJJ, etc is all good. If you compare some of the rest of the worlds combatives it looks like America is cutting edge. There are a lot of countries teaching thier soldiers to upper block and reverse punch from a horse stance. No kidding.
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:16am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know these parts of the FM are old, but i'm not sure about the time they were included and the hows and whys they were included. Could you ellaborate a bit about the evolution of combatives FMs.

    I guess military CQC should have leeway to be joke considering less than 3% of kills are within range to do it.
    Where did you get that stat from? Its actually alot higher. Also CQC refers to both ARMED and UNARMED combat. And there have been numerous CQC encounters in Afgahn and Iraq. That is one of the reasons Combatives is being intergrated into MOUT training.

    Isn't L.I.N.E. some good stuff?
    EEEGADS! No. That was a horrid program. MCMAP is way better but still pretty crude.
    And as a small gloat, we a mini Combatives tournament yesterday.We had marines come and compete. They did well against noobs but they eventually got schooled by more experienced pple (like white belt 4 stripe level) They had heart and explosiveness but their technique was bad and needed to be polished.
    ______
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  4. Macistani is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:16am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The first one looks like a modified Kali-Eskrima technique. I would use the lead hand to parry the weapon instead of the hand he's using.
  5. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:23am


     Style: judo, parenting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    Who wrote the 1942? Was it Applegate?
    No, it was written by committee, like most other manuals. It does give credit to the New York Judo club in the preface.
  6. mrblackmagic is offline
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    My pleasure.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:36am

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     Style: yang taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin
    No, it was written by committee, like most other manuals. It does give credit to the New York Judo club in the preface.
    Thanks for the clarification.
  7. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:49am

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     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Yrkoon9 has adressed the issue quite nicely. I don't know how many times soldiers are gonna find themselves in unarmed combat situations, but my guess is that it would rarely happen.
  8. mrblackmagic is offline
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    My pleasure.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 11:57am

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     Style: yang taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Where did you get that stat from? Its actually alot higher. Also CQC refers to both ARMED and UNARMED combat. And there have been numerous CQC encounters in Afgahn and Iraq. That is one of the reasons Combatives is being intergrated into MOUT training.


    EEEGADS! No. That was a horrid program. MCMAP is way better but still pretty crude.
    And as a small gloat, we a mini Combatives tournament yesterday.We had marines come and compete. They did well against noobs but they eventually got schooled by more experienced pple (like white belt 4 stripe level) They had heart and explosiveness but their technique was bad and needed to be polished.
    It is a joke. For more clarification, CQB refers to unarmed only, correct?
  9. War Wizard is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 12:52pm


     Style: Judo - Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    I think Yrkoon9 has adressed the issue quite nicely. I don't know how many times soldiers are gonna find themselves in unarmed combat situations, but my guess is that it would rarely happen.
    Actually as I mentioned in another thread, combatives do come in handy in modern combat. As an example, go pick up Down Range by Dick Couch, flip to the section about Lt. Yarrow. It describes how he took down an entire ships crew by himself using only combatives. Another story was in Grappling magazine about a CH-47 crew chief subdued an unruly prisoner using only combatives, thus not risking a stray bullet hitting a vital piece of equipment. In essence, with a Gulf War I situation, where it's armor on armor, sure combatives aren't useful, but when you're operating in an enclosed space against a fanatical, yet largely untrained enemy (much the situation in now), there is a distinct possibility you won't be using a bullet to end an encounter.
    "Keep a sharp knife, shiny boots and be on time."
  10. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    6/29/2006 12:55pm

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Yes we know some of the things in there aren't great and they are being reevaluated. If you knew what goes in to actually CHANGING established FMs you'd understand. Its a good thing that Mr Larsen (SFC ret.) got the changes in that he did.

    I did 4 years in the military myself. I remember when I first started I heard that they where going to be changing the PT(Physical Training-for those that didn't know what it stood for). Instead of pushups, situps, and running all the time they would mix it up a little bit. Four years later, I get out the military and I still hear that they are going to be changing things very soon. I talked with a friend who left the military a year and a half after me and she said that she thinks there were trying to phase it in but she did know for sure that her old unit was still doing the regular PT excercises of pushups, situps, running.

    The point of this rant, PT is considered somewhat of a priority in the military and it takes them that long to update it. Imagine how long it's going to take for them to update their self-defense information. It's not really a priority; at least when I was in the military.

    I wrote in another post how when I was in basic training. We did like 3 hours of some ground fighting self defense and they actually thought us the "how to get triangled really quick" guard pass as part of it. If I would have known then what I know now I would have tried to triangle my Drill Sgt. After that I didn't get any self defense training until I had to perform guard duty for a bunch of ROTC cadet's weapons. It was done by some people in the unit who had been in longer then us and a female officer who did 1 year of Judo. They showed us some moves, we practiced them. That was it.

    I'm sure since MMA is gaining more attention as well as the techniques used that more units are more inclined to take some of those run, pushup, situp PT days and do more sparring and self defense but when I was in, it just wasn't important. Some of my supervisors; when you would suggest alternatives to the normal routine, would just quote regulation as an excuse not to do it.
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