Shuai jiao versus judo?

**Skummer** · Posted On: 5/24/2003 5:45pm

Shuai Chiao varies wildly in its training methods depending upon the teacher. For instance, the one shuai chiao school here in Atlanta is David Lin's Academy at www.combatshuaichiao.com. At this school they not only do the throwing-only randori type sparring, but also free sparring with strikes and locks. This is much superior for self defense than most judo schools' training.

I say this as a practicing judoka. Actually, I'd be going to Master Lin's school if it weren't on the other side of town...

- Skummer -

If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
-Lao Tzu

**Vapour** · Posted On: 5/24/2003 6:55pm

Or, uhm, no.
Judo was never a battlefield art. It always included groundwork, in fact, Judo use to be much more ground oriented, about 50/50. Then, when it becam an olympic sport it needed to A. Be entertaing to spectators and B. Look different than wrestling. That is when the focus on Stand-up became more prevelant.

Ahh, I think you are talking about post war judo. I'm talking about the time when it was Kano jujitu. Development of majority of judo newaza techniques is a result of judo's emphasis on randori.

Edited by - Vapour on May 24 2003 18:57:13

**Vapour** · Posted On: 5/24/2003 7:21pm

I did bit more research. The jujitu school which used lot of ground works to defeat Kano jujitu 1900 was Fusen ryu, which apparently contributed to Judo's katame no kata (form of holds). Still up to 1914, the main emphasis of judo was on throwing. However, by 1925, it was recognised that there was too much emphasis on newaza in contest where fighters start to pull their opponents straight to the ground. So rules were changed to return judo to stand up arts.

Also, I read a book about Daito-ryu aiki-jujitu. It is probably not accurate to generalise from just one school but their ground work consist of one guy standing or kneeling and other guy on the ground being locked. A guys in E-budo who has seen number of ancient European fighting manuals has commented that the grappling technique demonstrated by European knights are remarkably similar to jujitu and there were complete absent of groundwork (as in rolling) technique.

Edited by - Vapour on May 24 2003 19:28:20

**fragbot** · Posted On: 5/25/2003 11:15am

Shuai Jiao, having do pretentsions of being sport, emphasises throwing in such a way as to make breakfalls impossible or other wise injure the thrown party. Examples include guiding the throwee all the way down so that they land on their head or falling on top of them so they get an elbow to the face or something as they land.

Having watched John Wang's clips, shuai chiao's throws aren't that different from judo's.

Judo throws can land someone on their head easily enough and I suspect the SC guys practice it as often as the judo guys do. That is, pretty much never on purpose (yeah, Cheng did throw one of his ukes directly on his neck; notice he grabbed someone new to receive the next throw). Likewise, judo has makikomi style throws as well.

Watching all those clips, there were only a coupla throws that didn't have judo equivalents. One was more of an aiki-style throw while the other was essentially ippon seoi nage (the SC guys call it bowing) from the outside. Yeah, that's a nasty throw.

Sorry to bring up the biting thing again but my favorite Shuai Jiao teacher likes to joke that SC people file their teeth every day for ground fighting. Last week he joked that they practice biting a raw pigs leg untill they can reach bone. Other less humorous groundfighting tactics involve things like breaking fingers one at a time.

I guess it's easier to ridicule something than it is to swallow your pride. In any case, have you ever had anyone bite you while you're working on a lock on the ground? I have. While it's mildly irritating and left some lingering scar tissue, it felt about the same as a really hard pinch. While I suspect it'd work okay if you tore a tendon, ligament, carotid arteries, or testicles, I'd bet it's a low-percentage technique against someone motivated.

Likewise, I've also had people try to get away by bending my fingers and by thumbing my eye. Bending the fingers probably worked about a 1/4 of the time (BTW: this percentage drops in relation to your opponent's skill) while the eye thing didn't work at all, er, since you can see it coming a mile away.

Edited by - fragbot on May 25 2003 11:19:51

**Omar** · Posted On: 5/25/2003 11:36am

not bending, breaking.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

**fragbot** · Posted On: 5/25/2003 9:39pm

not bending, breaking.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

C'mon, y'all gotta be reasonable. Isn't anyone going to purposefully break your fingers during training (tho' I know one guy who broke his own thumb to get out his sensei's lock. . .something's wrong with that guy). In a friendly training session, bending and breaking are the same thing.

It's not a horrible technique, but it's not nearly as good as re-positioning your body in some manner.

My main problem with biting, pinching, and finger breaks against skilled people applying a lock, they're (usually) not debilitating enough. In other words, if some guy's putting a cross-body armlock on me, he's paid his pain and training ante. While annoyances might deter someone without training, people who deal with discomfort &lt; irritation &lt; pain on a regular basis just recognize it as a cost of doing business.

**Freddy** · Posted On: 5/26/2003 3:34pm

I have to agree with Skummer. There are different styles of shua jiao just like there are different styles of kung fu. Some emphasize more on one thing or another. I think with the strikes and joint locks with the throws make it a pretty well balance art etc. I remember an old Black Belt article I had from the 80's about how Shuai Jiao practitioners entering in the Olymipic judo championships were losing because they would continously lose points for hurting their opponents. And that the Chinese team had to modified and retrain their techniques to make it safer for the Olympics.
I have seen a few shuai jiao practitioners practice (I dont know which style but it was from North China). All I could say is some of their throws are quite violent and its would be very difficult or impossible to break fall from certain moves. I've seen guys thrown in a spinning fashion and guys thrown with their arm(s) tied up which makes it impossible to properly execute a break fall. I seen this really intertesting move on how this guy broke out of a hammer lock by flipping over and then after landing counter his opponent with a leg sweep, driving the guy into the floor. Its quite interesting how the various style differ.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"