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  1. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 11:21am


     Style: Savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    in my old JJ school we had nada kuzushi training. All throws were supposedly done after bunch of atemi. Do I need to tell you that I sucked when we did throwing randori.:new_micro
  2. Freakshow is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 11:47am


     Style: Box, Kickbox, No-gi BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinobi_jebus
    if you dont move your body too `roll with the punches` so too speak you are going too take the full force of the blows, your body learns too roll with the punches and you can use this against someone.
    its pretty simple really if you think about it.
    He wasn't talking about rolling with punches. He was talking about reducing fighting to a game of tag. Its like kids playing war and shooting toy guns at each other, arguing over "I got you!" "No you didn't!" "Yes I did! I got you! You are supposed to lay down now, you're out!" "You only got me in the leg!" "Then you have to limp!"

    What the guy in that MAP post is describing has as much resemblence to fighting as the kid's game of war has to actually shooting each other.

    There are a number of problems with it.

    How the hell do they know what its like to get hit? If one hasn't done a sufficient amount of sparring/fighting, then how do they what it is like?

    The effects of the same hit can vary greatly. Watch boxing. You see guys get hit with left hooks to the right side of the body all the time. And they can take it. But every once in a while, one hits just right, nails the liver, and drops the guy right down. (Both Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Junior have won title fights with liver shots; if you want to see it in MMA, see Mirko Cro Cop and his liver kick against Ibragim Magomedov.) You see the same thing with hits to the head. Guys take hits to the head (even around the jaw) all the time, and keep on going. But sometimes one lands just right, on the button, and the guy goes down. Same punch, apparently same place. Different effect.

    There are cumulative and delayed effects to being hit. Not all of the effects of being hit are immediately apparent. Sometimes it means a delay before the effects of that single hit are seen (watch Cro Cop and Magomedov; a slight delay before the liver shot takes effect.) And there are cumulative effects from being hit multiple times. Getting hit in the head can have a different effect if you've already been hit in the body a few times and are having trouble breathing (need lots of oxygen to fight, ya know.)

    They will never develop the mental toughness and preparation needed to deal with being hit. Imagine someone has been training for years, never doing any contact, and they've never been hit hard in their life. The first time they get popped good, they are going to freak the **** out. One needs to experience it a bit to get used to it.

    One needs to learn how to react and continue fighting. If you are always practicing with "This hit causes this reaction", and that's the way you've been drilling it for years, what are you going to do when someone doesn't react that way? Or doesn't react at all? Sure, you are thinking "Well, I can try something else." But that likely will only happen after a hesitation where you are thinking "WTF?" It is better to train fighting in a more alive manner, so that one can develop the attributes and experience such that they are used to dealing with varying reactions.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 12:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He, a compliant uke that acts as if it hurts is like the benevolent/frustrated girlfriend who fakes an orgasm : they both do what they do because you fucking suck more than a vacuum cleaner or Windows 98.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 12:24pm


     Style: Savate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    He, a compliant uke that acts as if it hurts is like the benevolent/frustrated girlfriend who fakes an orgasm : they both do what they do because you fucking suck more than a vacuum cleaner or Windows 98.
    Hear hear. Though sometimes people act, or show they are hurt so you stop hitting them in sparring. Ok that was captain obvious speaking, but just a thought.:evil3:
  5. shinobi_jebus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 12:27pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow
    He wasn't talking about rolling with punches. He was talking about reducing fighting to a game of tag. Its like kids playing war and shooting toy guns at each other, arguing over "I got you!" "No you didn't!" "Yes I did! I got you! You are supposed to lay down now, you're out!" "You only got me in the leg!" "Then you have to limp!"

    my fault there, i didnt read the whole post before i replied.



    How the hell do they know what its like to get hit? If one hasn't done a sufficient amount of sparring/fighting, then how do they what it is like?


    if they arent moving they should be getting hit.


    The effects of the same hit can vary greatly. Watch boxing. You see guys get hit with left hooks to the right side of the body all the time. And they can take it. But every once in a while, one hits just right, nails the liver, and drops the guy right down. (Both Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones Junior have won title fights with liver shots; if you want to see it in MMA, see Mirko Cro Cop and his liver kick against Ibragim Magomedov.) You see the same thing with hits to the head. Guys take hits to the head (even around the jaw) all the time, and keep on going. But sometimes one lands just right, on the button, and the guy goes down. Same punch, apparently same place. Different effect.


    i agree theres alot of factors involved and in training people should be trying too land hits , not just expecting the same reaction from everyone in the dojo.


    They will never develop the mental toughness and preparation needed to deal with being hit. Imagine someone has been training for years, never doing any contact, and they've never been hit hard in their life. The first time they get popped good, they are going to freak the **** out. One needs to experience it a bit to get used to it.

    thats a large part of training in our dojo and i wouldnt be training anywhere there is no chance of getting hit.

    One needs to learn how to react and continue fighting. If you are always practicing with "This hit causes this reaction", and that's the way you've been drilling it for years, what are you going to do when someone doesn't react that way? Or doesn't react at all? Sure, you are thinking "Well, I can try something else." But that likely will only happen after a hesitation where you are thinking "WTF?" It is better to train fighting in a more alive manner, so that one can develop the attributes and experience such that they are used to dealing with varying reactions.
    i agree with this completely and you should be trying too land the hits everytime and not just expect the reaction, this is one of the reasons i like training with the newer guys in the dojo sometimes because they havent become acustomed too the various techniques and how too go with it, nothing pisses me off more than having someone else do the technique for you.
    and again you should be training going through the motions with different people of different ranks and body types.
  6. shinobi_jebus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 12:28pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ok i just made a big mess with the quote function , i dont know how that happend
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 12:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinobi_jebus
    ok i just made a big mess with the quote function , i dont know how that happend
    You have committed a serious quoting sin. You must commit seppuku. :seppuku:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Bugeisha is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 12:40pm


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    He, a compliant uke that acts as if it hurts is like the benevolent/frustrated girlfriend who fakes an orgasm : they both do what they do because you fucking suck more than a vacuum cleaner or Windows 98.
    Interesting you mention this, 'cause when my girfriend fakes an orgasm, I give her a hook to the liver.
  9. Backdraft is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 1:01pm


     Style: Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    He, a compliant uke that acts as if it hurts is like the benevolent/frustrated girlfriend who fakes an orgasm : they both do what they do because you fucking suck more than a vacuum cleaner or Windows 98.
    They also both make you think you're better then you are.
  10. Thaiboxerken is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2006 1:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kru-MuayThai,GJJ-Blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinobi_jebus
    i agree with this completely and you should be trying too land the hits everytime and not just expect the reaction, this is one of the reasons i like training with the newer guys in the dojo sometimes because they havent become acustomed too the various techniques and how too go with it, nothing pisses me off more than having someone else do the technique for you.
    I've encountered this plenty of times myself. I was working a silly wristlock takedown with some kid and he simply tossed himself to the ground. WTF?! I realized at that time how Aikido masters do it in demos. It's all about authority and suggestion, when in an actual fight, it's not.
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