Once again, get a copy of Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It's a bit firearms-oriented, but the information is priceless. If you can cut loose the cash and want to really learn about these issues take his course LFI-1: Judicious Use of Deadly Force. You will learn more than cops and lawyers do about this sort of thing, the legal and ethical dimensions of the use of deadly force, what to expect physically and psychologically after a confrontation and much more.
To make things overly simple, if you reasonably believe that someone is about to use unlawful deadly force against you or an innocent third person and you have no other way of preventing it you can use deadly force. Knife and gun are both deadly force. If you don't honestly believe that is the case, don't use deadly force. Generally an unarmed person of more or less the same size and physicality trying to hit you isn't deadly force. Six or eight guys? That can be different. Twelve of them or four with pick-handles? You're in a wheelchair? Figure it out.
No, there isn't. Criminal charges don't normally account for these things in an attempt to try and keep things simple. The law doesn't need to be made amy more complicated than it already is.
Originally Posted by KZ2
That is my suspicion too. The severity of the injuries to the one guy caused the case to be looked in to. They looked at the totality of the circumstances and let it go. This happened probably 30 years ago though. Today, it might be a differnet story. Who knows? In hindsight, it was good to drop it because 30 years later, stick dude was a productive member of society and did not get into any trouble, at all.
Originally Posted by El Macho
“We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
Or he rapes babies. Either way he didn't get in trouble.
I guess the upshot is that in order to both defend yourself and stay out of jail you must work on your chi so that you can stop people's hearts with your mind.
Originally Posted by El Macho
One of my Kali instructors used to be a sheriff here so he is well versed in the law. He says that the guidelines that you need to remember are things like
it really depends upon the weapon itself,
gun and knife yes. But things like the type of knife are often taken into account.
If you have a four pronged spiked death truncheon on your hip then the cops are going to raise a fucking eyebrow, even if it is a self defense case.
If you are using a weapon that you really have no right to be carrying because it serves no utilitarian purpose, even if you defended yourself with it, it seems to others that you are LOOKING for trouble.
Much like guns, if you are carrying a snub nose revolver, yeah, okay, you are a gun carrier. If you are carrying a customized gold plated desert eagle brain-eater-5000 fully tacticlol decked out with all the whistles and bells, that is not a weapon one keeps on him for self defense.
Also it really depends on what you do to the person with said weapon.
If you SUBDUE someone with a knife, then no one is going to raise an eyebrow.
If you stab the guy eighty times. After he hit you ONCE... well.
Another thing that he often preaches is that if someone attacks you, make sure your break something, or make sure they are sitting in a hospital bed for a day looking down at some injured part of themselves. So that they have the reminder of a broken arm or big stitches to poke their brain and make them go
"Hmmm maybe I shouldn't have done that."
As a note, as far as the law goes here in Tennessee, it is that if someone, unprovoked, connects with two solid blows you are allowed to retaliate as if your life were in danger,. Least as I am to understand it.
Apparently there must be a rash of people going around just punching people once and running off.
Also, my Ju-Jitsu instructor (also cop) likes to add that cops routinely enjoy it when a citizen messes up a scum bag, and will usually vouch for said citizen.
But that is totally off the record, and cannot in ANYWAY be taken as legal advice.
Hope this helps a little.
Last edited by Binary; 6/23/2006 1:11am at .
I really, really hope that you've had a brain fart and are completely misquoting him because...
Originally Posted by Binary
Most of what your teacher said is good advice. This bit is just fucking imbecilic. And please feel free to tell him I said so. Congratulations, your Guro, has just destroyed his students' claims of self defense. The prosecutor will certainly find out that he gave felony-stupid instructions like this. Then, when his students are on the witness stand it will come out that they were taught to use deadly force (broken bones and gaping wounds that require lots of stitches are deadly force everywhere on planet Earth) in order to punish people. The legal justification has been completely undermined.
The only justification for deadly force by a private citizen is to prevent the immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury to the innocent. You don't have the right to punish them, teach them a lesson or add chlorine to the gene pool. You only have the right to use necessary force to stop the crime. Nothing more.
This cretin is teaching his students to go outside the law and commit violent felonies. I don't give a **** if he was a sheriff, a police chief, or John Fucking Wayne. He's setting them up for serious Pound-Me-In-The-Ass prison time.
More proof, as if we didn't need it already, that cops are not judges or lawyers.
Last edited by tellner; 6/23/2006 1:42am at .
In hindsight I should have added a disclaimer vouching for the fact that I don't believe what he has to say about a lot of things. This falling under that category.
I was simply adding it in on the subject of legality, from the perspective of a law enforcement officer, as to add to the discussion. I in no way intended that to be taken as advice, or anything else than me just sharing peoples stances on it.
I agree with you that to hurt some one egregiously defeats the entire concept of self defense and changes the situation entirely. More over that it just
SHOULDN'T BE DONE.
For the record I think my Guro has a bit of a hard on for bodily harm.
Edit: Also I am paraphrasing what he said, yes, but he has said this sentiment on multiple occasions.
Fortunately he doesn't actually do much teaching, he has a teacher level instructor under him that handles 95% of the Kali classes.
As for the Ju-Jitsu instructor he has never said anything along these lines.
Last edited by Binary; 6/23/2006 2:32am at .
I'm sorry, U-Turns are not permitted in this lane.
For the original poster, the quick and dirty rule of thumb to remember is that in order for self defense to work in court, a jury or a judge have to agree with you that a "reasonable man" standing in your shoes would have reacted the way you did. You could have done the wrong thing, but if they think a reasonable person would have done the same, you could still be aqcquitted. Conversely, you could do something entirely appropriate and, theoretically at least, still get convicted because the jury or the judge thinks it wasn't what a "reasonable man" would do.
Judges, juries and lawyers are not made up of fighters, trainers, or people who read Bullshido. Think of what the average person on the street would think of your defense, because that's who will have to decided whether you go to prison or not.
The other rule of thumb is not to carry a weapon until you thoroughly understand its use and the legal implications. Make sure you follow that one.
I went a little overboard there. It's serious business. Lots of good shoots turn into convictions because of stupid stuff people say or do right after what would be perfectly justified - running, throwing the weapon off a bridge, "drag the body into the house so it looks like he was an intruder". We had a women's self defense student who nearly ended up in jail because she figured she didn't need a lawyer - all she needed was to walk into court and tell the truth. Thank G-d we browbeat her on that one.
It's just too serious, and the risks are too great.
Not only do states have their own laws but each county has their own ordnances too.
It doesn't matter how "scary" your knife or gun looks. Unless it has features which are specifically prohibited, it is legal. There is usually no law against carrying a full blown race gun for protection. Can carrying the gun be used against you in court? Of course as they can say that a gun with a light aftermarket trigger trigger is dangerous since the chances of accidental discharges (AD) are higher. However, if you did carry a bling bling piece like that chances are you would've had extensive training and competition which you can use to defend yourself by proving that you have the knowledge and competence to carry such a gun. And even if you didn't, it's still not against the law. A cop may pull you over for having a huge spoiler on your car. Is having one illegal? Hell no.
While it is true that even many cops themselves don't even know their own laws and will attempt to arrest you when you committed no crime, the fact still remains is that the law is the law which is written to be black and white unless specifically stated. Misinterpretation happens when people read too much into laws and see things that aren't even there.
You have to defend your rights no matter what because they will take away ANYTHING you allow them to no matter how small it seems and eventually you'll have no rights at all.
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