233607 Bullies, 3910 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 33
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 12 34 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. tellner is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    151

    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 4:46pm


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Once again, get a copy of Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It's a bit firearms-oriented, but the information is priceless. If you can cut loose the cash and want to really learn about these issues take his course LFI-1: Judicious Use of Deadly Force. You will learn more than cops and lawyers do about this sort of thing, the legal and ethical dimensions of the use of deadly force, what to expect physically and psychologically after a confrontation and much more.

    To make things overly simple, if you reasonably believe that someone is about to use unlawful deadly force against you or an innocent third person and you have no other way of preventing it you can use deadly force. Knife and gun are both deadly force. If you don't honestly believe that is the case, don't use deadly force. Generally an unarmed person of more or less the same size and physicality trying to hit you isn't deadly force. Six or eight guys? That can be different. Twelve of them or four with pick-handles? You're in a wheelchair? Figure it out.
  2. Mr. Mantis is offline
    Mr. Mantis's Avatar

    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    under the sink
    Posts
    6,333

    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 6:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KZ2
    Surely there's something in the law that says sheer number of attackers (in the 5-on-1 example) escalates the situation to the point where using a weapon is an appropriate response?
    No, there isn't. Criminal charges don't normally account for these things in an attempt to try and keep things simple. The law doesn't need to be made amy more complicated than it already is.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho

    I'm not sure Mantis, correct me if I'm wrong. But I have the suspicion the prosecutor wanted to prosecute the stick dude because one of the attackers required multiple sutures. That was escalation. If he had just wacked him and knock him out and make a run for it, the situation would have been different.

    For the attacker to require multiple sutures, stick dude must have wacked him several times, and I doubt the attacker at that point was still trying to charge him. Most people are not that bad asses.
    That is my suspicion too. The severity of the injuries to the one guy caused the case to be looked in to. They looked at the totality of the circumstances and let it go. This happened probably 30 years ago though. Today, it might be a differnet story. Who knows? In hindsight, it was good to drop it because 30 years later, stick dude was a productive member of society and did not get into any trouble, at all.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  3. Plasma is offline
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,128

    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 7:44pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: JJJ/Judo[Nidan] BJJ[Blue]

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    In hindsight, it was good to drop it because 30 years later, stick dude was a productive member of society and did not get into any trouble, at all.

    Or he rapes babies. Either way he didn't get in trouble.
  4. KZ2 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    15

    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 9:23pm


     Style: NONE

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by El Macho
    No. It's all discretionary to the prosecutors and the judge.

    I'm not sure Mantis, correct me if I'm wrong. But I have the suspicion the prosecutor wanted to prosecute the stick dude because one of the attackers required multiple sutures. That was escalation. If he had just wacked him and knock him out and make a run for it, the situation would have been different.

    For the attacker to require multiple sutures, stick dude must have wacked him several times, and I doubt the attacker at that point was still trying to charge him. Most people are not that bad asses.

    KZ2, I'm not saying it's logical. ****, anyone who jumps others in multitude deserves to be castrated with a hammer. But if the prosecutors decide to think "hey, stick dude at that point was no longer the victim of an attack defending himself, but had become an attacker... and with a weapon", there is nothing one can do to stop them from thinking like that. That's their job.
    I guess the upshot is that in order to both defend yourself and stay out of jail you must work on your chi so that you can stop people's hearts with your mind.
  5. Binary is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chattanooga Tennessee
    Posts
    339

    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 1:07am


     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of my Kali instructors used to be a sheriff here so he is well versed in the law. He says that the guidelines that you need to remember are things like
    it really depends upon the weapon itself,
    gun and knife yes. But things like the type of knife are often taken into account.
    If you have a four pronged spiked death truncheon on your hip then the cops are going to raise a fucking eyebrow, even if it is a self defense case.
    If you are using a weapon that you really have no right to be carrying because it serves no utilitarian purpose, even if you defended yourself with it, it seems to others that you are LOOKING for trouble.

    Much like guns, if you are carrying a snub nose revolver, yeah, okay, you are a gun carrier. If you are carrying a customized gold plated desert eagle brain-eater-5000 fully tacticlol decked out with all the whistles and bells, that is not a weapon one keeps on him for self defense.

    Also it really depends on what you do to the person with said weapon.
    If you SUBDUE someone with a knife, then no one is going to raise an eyebrow.
    If you stab the guy eighty times. After he hit you ONCE... well.

    Another thing that he often preaches is that if someone attacks you, make sure your break something, or make sure they are sitting in a hospital bed for a day looking down at some injured part of themselves. So that they have the reminder of a broken arm or big stitches to poke their brain and make them go
    "Hmmm maybe I shouldn't have done that."

    As a note, as far as the law goes here in Tennessee, it is that if someone, unprovoked, connects with two solid blows you are allowed to retaliate as if your life were in danger,. Least as I am to understand it.
    Apparently there must be a rash of people going around just punching people once and running off.

    Also, my Ju-Jitsu instructor (also cop) likes to add that cops routinely enjoy it when a citizen messes up a scum bag, and will usually vouch for said citizen.
    But that is totally off the record, and cannot in ANYWAY be taken as legal advice.

    EDIT:
    Hope this helps a little.
    Last edited by Binary; 6/23/2006 1:11am at .
  6. tellner is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    151

    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 1:29am


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Binary
    Another thing that he often preaches is that if someone attacks you, make sure your break something, or make sure they are sitting in a hospital bed for a day looking down at some injured part of themselves. So that they have the reminder of a broken arm or big stitches to poke their brain and make them go
    "Hmmm maybe I shouldn't have done that."
    I really, really hope that you've had a brain fart and are completely misquoting him because...

    Most of what your teacher said is good advice. This bit is just fucking imbecilic. And please feel free to tell him I said so. Congratulations, your Guro, has just destroyed his students' claims of self defense. The prosecutor will certainly find out that he gave felony-stupid instructions like this. Then, when his students are on the witness stand it will come out that they were taught to use deadly force (broken bones and gaping wounds that require lots of stitches are deadly force everywhere on planet Earth) in order to punish people. The legal justification has been completely undermined.

    The only justification for deadly force by a private citizen is to prevent the immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury to the innocent. You don't have the right to punish them, teach them a lesson or add chlorine to the gene pool. You only have the right to use necessary force to stop the crime. Nothing more.

    This cretin is teaching his students to go outside the law and commit violent felonies. I don't give a **** if he was a sheriff, a police chief, or John Fucking Wayne. He's setting them up for serious Pound-Me-In-The-Ass prison time.

    More proof, as if we didn't need it already, that cops are not judges or lawyers.
    Last edited by tellner; 6/23/2006 1:42am at .
  7. Binary is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Chattanooga Tennessee
    Posts
    339

    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 2:25am


     Style: Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In hindsight I should have added a disclaimer vouching for the fact that I don't believe what he has to say about a lot of things. This falling under that category.

    I was simply adding it in on the subject of legality, from the perspective of a law enforcement officer, as to add to the discussion. I in no way intended that to be taken as advice, or anything else than me just sharing peoples stances on it.

    I agree with you that to hurt some one egregiously defeats the entire concept of self defense and changes the situation entirely. More over that it just
    SHOULDN'T BE DONE.


    For the record I think my Guro has a bit of a hard on for bodily harm.

    Edit: Also I am paraphrasing what he said, yes, but he has said this sentiment on multiple occasions.
    Fortunately he doesn't actually do much teaching, he has a teacher level instructor under him that handles 95% of the Kali classes.
    As for the Ju-Jitsu instructor he has never said anything along these lines.
    Last edited by Binary; 6/23/2006 2:32am at .
  8. Don Gwinn is online now
    Don Gwinn's Avatar

    BJJ wins again!

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Virden, IL
    Posts
    3,563

    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 7:15am

    supporting member
     Style: Guns

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, U-Turns are not permitted in this lane.


    For the original poster, the quick and dirty rule of thumb to remember is that in order for self defense to work in court, a jury or a judge have to agree with you that a "reasonable man" standing in your shoes would have reacted the way you did. You could have done the wrong thing, but if they think a reasonable person would have done the same, you could still be aqcquitted. Conversely, you could do something entirely appropriate and, theoretically at least, still get convicted because the jury or the judge thinks it wasn't what a "reasonable man" would do.

    Judges, juries and lawyers are not made up of fighters, trainers, or people who read Bullshido. Think of what the average person on the street would think of your defense, because that's who will have to decided whether you go to prison or not.



    The other rule of thumb is not to carry a weapon until you thoroughly understand its use and the legal implications. Make sure you follow that one.
    *********************************************
  9. tellner is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    151

    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 9:03am


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I went a little overboard there. It's serious business. Lots of good shoots turn into convictions because of stupid stuff people say or do right after what would be perfectly justified - running, throwing the weapon off a bridge, "drag the body into the house so it looks like he was an intruder". We had a women's self defense student who nearly ended up in jail because she figured she didn't need a lawyer - all she needed was to walk into court and tell the truth. Thank G-d we browbeat her on that one.

    It's just too serious, and the risks are too great.
  10. Honor is offline
    Honor's Avatar

    Lightweight

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Palmdale, CA
    Posts
    380

    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 6:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Gnujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not only do states have their own laws but each county has their own ordnances too.

    It doesn't matter how "scary" your knife or gun looks. Unless it has features which are specifically prohibited, it is legal. There is usually no law against carrying a full blown race gun for protection. Can carrying the gun be used against you in court? Of course as they can say that a gun with a light aftermarket trigger trigger is dangerous since the chances of accidental discharges (AD) are higher. However, if you did carry a bling bling piece like that chances are you would've had extensive training and competition which you can use to defend yourself by proving that you have the knowledge and competence to carry such a gun. And even if you didn't, it's still not against the law. A cop may pull you over for having a huge spoiler on your car. Is having one illegal? Hell no.

    While it is true that even many cops themselves don't even know their own laws and will attempt to arrest you when you committed no crime, the fact still remains is that the law is the law which is written to be black and white unless specifically stated. Misinterpretation happens when people read too much into laws and see things that aren't even there.

    You have to defend your rights no matter what because they will take away ANYTHING you allow them to no matter how small it seems and eventually you'll have no rights at all.
    Legendary Street Fighter
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 12 34 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.