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  1. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:12pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dale defends the Lunge punch

    From http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...reply&p=896025

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Seago
    Many people from modern sportive arts, who apparently have no understanding of what they're observing, criticize the same-hand/same-foot forward "lunge punch" often seen in the Bujinkan and "spinoff" arts (e.g., Genbukan and Jinenkan) as unrealistic. . .at best. (And in fact, I have my own criticisms of it, but I'll save that for a wee bit yet.)

    The question needs to be, and is virtually never, asked: Unrealistic for what?

    Warfare?

    It seems to me that the major influence on this kind of movement is the use of weapons.

    A while back I posted a link to an article by Dr. Kacem Zoughari concerning the history of movement in Japanese martial arts; and a couple of things he wrote sort of jumped out at me:



    I just went back and looked (for the first time in several years) at a Japanese documentary video which Shiraishi sensei gave me back in '89, featuring a number of Japanese kobudo arts. Interestingly, almost universally among them -- whether the attack was a strike, a grab, a sword cut, a spear or naginata thrust or cut, throwing bo (spike) shuriken, etc. -- this kind of movement was being used, with the same-side hand and foot forward.

    And these arts had no relationship to the Bujinkan. (Other than the period in which they developed, anyway.)

    Now obviously, these benighted heathens of the 1600s and earlier were ignorant of the sublime heights of understanding reached by modern sport practitioners. Their only real concern was killing each other on the orders of their respective lords. Little interest seems to have been shown in "submitting an opponent", unless it was something along the line of "submit your head to the point of my yari so I can display it more easily when I return to camp".

    But then, these were martial arts, as in "pertaining to, or suitable for, warfare". And in warfare, weapons have always been primary ever since Urgh clocked Grog with a mastodon thigh-bone.

    I remember once seeing a group of (American) TKD practitioners doing a public demonstration, during the course of which they did some stuff involving some kind of 2-man forms with (Japanese!) katana. It was truly painful to watch, as it showed there was absolutely no sense of commonality of principles or integration of movement across the range of empty-hand and weapon skills.

    With a truly martial art, though, in the interest of efficiency in learning and application it's pretty much "all the same" whether empty-handed or with any weapon. You even see this with European medieval-to-Renaissance era training manuals on combat which have survived to the present.

    But what did they know, they'd never be able to hack it in the ring. . . :rolleyes:

    Attacking in this way makes you a little less vulnerable to your opponent's weapons than if you were doing a "hips & shoulders square-on" reverse punch. It also enables you to move and do things while keeping your sheathed sword, holstered pistol, or slung carbine out of reach of the opponent until you have the proper space to access and use them.

    That being said, however. . .I remember a training session in Nagase shihan's dojo in '98 where he commented that, across the Bujinkan in general, people had rather poor attacking skills. It's something I very much took to heart those years ago and, honestly, I agree with what he said then. Been working on it with my dojo ever since. If others don't know how to make this kind of movement work "for real", well. . .doesn't affect my own training or that of my students.

    I feel that the also-criticized matter of launching attacks from a low "ichimonjoid" sort of posture in kata training is also misunderstood. . .not only by the sportive types, but by many in the Bujinkan as well. . .and it actually is a separate issue from the same-side hand and foot thing. In my opinion, assuming and moving in these low postures is simply for the purpose of what the sport folks would refer to as "attribute development" -- not unlike practicing a lot of cuts with a extra-heavy suburito bokken if you're a kendoka. Doesn't mean you're going to bout with one against your opponent's bamboo shinai: It's "baby step" conditioning stuff for early in the learning process.
    Now I believe that it should be in kata and I have even made a usage for it similar to the SBG boxing blast but with 2 committed fast Lunge Punches after I have set it up. I don't use if very often. I think a boxing delivery system is much better for modern fighting.
  2. Seraphim is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:16pm


     Style: Karate, Sadism, Violence.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He brings up the lunge punch..then doesn't mention it again as he goes into obscurity.

    Lamer.
  3. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:19pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm glad to know his biggest concerns are guys with swords.

    I mean warfare hasn't changed at all in the last few hundred years. You either have a sword, or grab a wrist.
  4. Seraphim is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:21pm


     Style: Karate, Sadism, Violence.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It was indeed a piss poor attempt to cloud the topic. Then offer logically sounding arguments that having nothing to do with it.

    This man fails at the intrawebs.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:21pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe I'm missing something. what does a lunging strike, with a weapon, have to do with a lunging punch?
  6. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:26pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The body mechanics are the same. Most Koryu (I am not saying BJK is Koryu) and also BJK CQC based their strikes on movements they were familiar with, weapons. The oi Tsuki or lunge punch has the same mechanics of a spear thrust, wakizashi or tanto stab.
  7. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:28pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hereby nominate Dale Seago for Tool of the Year.
  8. rino86 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bjj/Machado/Pittman

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So because lunging at someone with a spear or sword is a valid technique, that means doing the same thing with a fist is also?

    Maybe he would have a point if he was discussing a blunt weapon but the use of something sharp and metal is way different from a blunt object like a fist.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:40pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinbushi
    The body mechanics are the same. Most Koryu (I am not saying BJK is Koryu) and also BJK CQC based their strikes on movements they were familiar with, weapons. The oi Tsuki or lunge punch has the same mechanics of a spear thrust, wakizashi or tanto stab.
    Right but his first paragraph sets the tone.


    Many people from modern sportive arts, who apparently have no understanding of what they're observing, criticize the same-hand/same-foot forward "lunge punch" often seen in the Bujinkan and "spinoff" arts (e.g., Genbukan and Jinenkan) as unrealistic. . .at best. (And in fact, I have my own criticisms of it, but I'll save that for a wee bit yet.)

    So, he goes into this huge diatribe which, doesn't address the compliant lunge punch every MMAer laughs at and thinks is silly. I've seen lunge punches. Hell, Mike Tyson was good at lunge punches in his early career.

    My point was all the weapons talk and history don't address the issue he raised of non-understanding. The lunge punch critiques I've encountered, are all based on compliant partners.

    Funny thing is if he left the dig at Sports fighting out, the article isn't all that bad.
  10. daGorilla is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 3:47pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Funny thing is if he left the dig at Sports fighting out, the article isn't all that bad.
    The article does not draw an introduction/conclusion well. I read it and was wondering what he was trying to say. And the dig at sports fighting was stupid.

    As a technique, there's nothing really wrong with the traditional karate lunge punch -- it's really just a long jab or straight punch at heart anyway. Delivered fast and hard it can be an effective point of entry or the start of a combination -- as long as it's part of a combination and none of that crappy Ippon-Kiai-Pose for the Referee bullshit.

    -daGorilla
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