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  1. Oasis is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 6:40pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In my opinion, there is a difference between being a master and achieving mastery. :XXspider: Achieving mastery is something (in my opinion) that is never possible. There is always something, I feel, that one could improve on or become more skilled at to make him or her even greater. Therefore, if mastery was achieving the peak of success in whatever martial art may be of subject, I do not think that it is possible to achieve. :XXspider: I think, however, that a master can be anybody that is skilled in what they do. A master is someone who is disciplined and skilled enough to be able to bring a pupil or aspiring martial artist to the master's level. (Sorry for the lack of proper paragraphs and spacing. For some reason, this site is really screwing up for me, so I put a a bird smiley every place there was supposed to be a line skipped for a new paragraph)
    Last edited by Oasis; 6/22/2006 6:47pm at .
  2. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 10:48pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    Word. Does anyone here know the specific requirements and expectations for a master-level tradesperson?
    Wikipedia to the rescue:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_craftsman

    Given a three year apprenticeship, three years as a journeyman and unspecified study time for the requisite qualifications, a round ten years of full or near full time effort sounds right.
  3. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 11:07pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, that fits quite nicely. If the controls were in place for quality assurance during the process, I would have no trouble accepting a title like that for a martial artist. Indeed, some people with the appropriate ranking actually deserve the title (whether or not they use it themselves). BJJ has neatly sidestepped this one with the "Professor" title, although that's another can of worms altogether.

    However, MA is an unregulated field to say the least. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a certifying body that existed simply to test out claims in an objective way? Results would then be published on website.

    These are some of the categories that I would include:
    * By x grade, students will be able to defend themselves against a single unskilled, unarmed attacker
    * By x grade, students will be able to defend themselves against multiple unskilled, unarmed attackers
    * By x grade, students will be able to defend themselves against a single unskilled, armed attacker
    * By x grade, students will be able to defend themselves against multiple unskilled, armed attackers
    * By x grade, students will be able to defend themselves against a single unarmed attacker skilled in x art
    * By x grade, students will be able to defend themselves against a single armed attacker skilled in x art
    * By x grade, students will make the heavens weep with their fighting prowess


    Standardized testing would be provided, replete with throat guards, goggles and impenetrable groin protectors, allowing even the deadliest styles to step up and get evaluated.

    If you were setting up those tests, how would you do it?
  4. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/22/2006 11:53pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    Actually, that fits quite nicely. If the controls were in place for quality assurance during the process, I would have no trouble accepting a title like that for a martial artist. Indeed, some people with the appropriate ranking actually deserve the title (whether or not they use it themselves). BJJ has neatly sidestepped this one with the "Professor" title, although that's another can of worms altogether.
    Well, Orientalism has really wrecked perception of these titles. Professors gets abused just as much, from being a kenpo title to some "professors" who act like they have accredited degrees when they don't.

    However, MA is an unregulated field to say the least. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a certifying body that existed simply to test out claims in an objective way? Results would then be published on website.
    I've always thought there should be related but separate grades for coaching, technical ability and fighting ability. They aren't really the same thing and give prospective training partners/students an idea of what the person has to offer.

    These are some of the categories that I would include:

    *snip*

    Standardized testing would be provided, replete with throat guards, goggles and impenetrable groin protectors, allowing even the deadliest styles to step up and get evaluated.

    If you were setting up those tests, how would you do it?
    Trouble with this sort of thing is that right now, the only body armour that can stand up to this restricts movement too much. Otherwise, any sort of testing like that would have to be over time, since one of the characteristics of live training is that everybody has on and off periods.
  5. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 12:15am

    supporting member
     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. You would essentially be talking about a guild of martial artists. Admission into the guild would be dependent on the fulfilment of certain criteria (e.g. syllabus, training methods, tests), and students would be tested by appointed members of the guild. Of course, many martial arts organisations operate like this, but their focus is on 'authenticity', not quality (as is the case with most craftsmen). Admission into the guild would be a certification of quality, assuring that all students would be able to perform to a certain level, under certain conditions. LIke all professional guilds, there would be certain assumptions about professionalism and character, but the stress would be on competence. This would not exclude the claims of budo, but it would not support them either - the point would be to allow all martial arts styles the opportunity to claim practical relevance.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  6. MrMcHarHar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 2:31am


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    Actually, that fits quite nicely. If the controls were in place for quality assurance during the process, I would have no trouble accepting a title like that for a martial artist. Indeed, some people with the appropriate ranking actually deserve the title (whether or not they use it themselves). BJJ has neatly sidestepped this one with the "Professor" title, although that's another can of worms altogether.

    However, MA is an unregulated field to say the least. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a certifying body that existed simply to test out claims in an objective way? Results would then be published on website.

    Standardized testing would be provided, replete with throat guards, goggles and impenetrable groin protectors, allowing even the deadliest styles to step up and get evaluated.

    If you were setting up those tests, how would you do it?
    Despite not being style vs. style tests, in Switzerland, there is the SJV (Swiss Judo and Ju-Jitsu Federation, www.sjv.ch if you can read german or french), and they provide something like a quality standard to ensure not every idiot claims to be a black belt, respectively all serious judo/ju-jitsu clubs are members of that federation. The seriousness you can also see by the fact that there are many police jj clubs which are members in the SJV (and of course the LEOs are very successful in competitions). I think there are similar federations for karate (www.karate.ch) and aikido.
  7. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 9:06am

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MrMcHarHar, that's pretty cool. Once again, European policy kicks all of our asses.

    DAYoung, it's a neat thought, but guilds are sort of exclusionary by nature and assume a common agenda. What I'm thinking about is an autonomous body with transparent processes and standardized tests. While the fighting stuff is the most interesting example, these people would also be able to validate claims of expertise (as in knowledge, not prowess), levels of physical fitness and perhaps even things as etheral as moral development. Okay, maybe not the last one.

    "But say there, Repulsive Monkey, isn't that what this site is all about?"

    I think it is to a certain extent, and that throwdowns are a superb informal test of fighting claims. However, to gain acceptance and recognition, expert committees would have to be formed and requirements would have to be made completely accessible. The coorperation of a few established organizations to help create and validate standards would also be invaluable.

    As it stands, the same informal, unrestrained nature that makes discourse on this site so valuable (when it is valuable) also creates a convenient escape hatch for the worst kind of offenders, as it's far less troubling to claim moral superiority than to show up and get punched in the face.
  8. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/23/2006 7:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    DAYoung, it's a neat thought, but guilds are sort of exclusionary by nature and assume a common agenda. What I'm thinking about is an autonomous body with transparent processes and standardized tests. While the fighting stuff is the most interesting example, these people would also be able to validate claims of expertise (as in knowledge, not prowess), levels of physical fitness and perhaps even things as etheral as moral development. Okay, maybe not the last one.
    To be honest, I don't see the immediate problem. The common agenda would be what grants the organisation its prestige, and the exclusionary nature would be essential for guaranteeing quality. It would still be a transparent body with formal processes and the like, but it would keep out the riff-raff. It could be an association - pretty much same thing, without the Medieval overtones.

    You would essentially be validating different kinds of knowledge: technical mastery, theoretical understanding, and 'knack' (which can be tested, if not schematised). As for moral and character development, we could have a test based on the work of Kohlberg and Loevinger - people who fail would be sent to 'education camps', and...

    Must. Stop. Now.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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