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  1. #101

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    Shinbushi,

    Actually this question is open to any TMArtist who practice alive.
    How do you personally embrace a training style like aliveness, as described by Matt Thornton which is strongly against kata practice, when your base style is built on kata practice? Can the two systems really work together? Because it does not sound like Mr Thornton believes so.

    I'll tell you an example of what I do in class, and how I try to incorporate "aliveness" as much as possible, and you tell me if its close to what you do or way off base.

    I willl start with a traditional kata. Jumonji no kata for example. Get the body mechanics, distance, timing,balance, structure etc as perfect as possible within the paramaters of Bujinkan kata training. Uke tori relationship with a set attack and set response without any unknown variables, for the most part.

    I will then extract what * I * believe to be the core elements of the kata. This usually means leaving out some "classical" elements and replacing them with something more "practical" . For example in jumonji no kata, I would work on the simple idea of moving off the line of attack by shifting to the rear leg (withoutout giving up any ground) , followed by a counter strike by the lead hand to the body and an immediate jab to the face with the lead as you retreat (or the jab can set up a cross for moving forward).



    I usually try to then set up a drill that has as many unknown variables as possible while still maintaining some structure.
    For example, "attacker" will make 4 attacks of any kind, and initates action. "Defender" will commit to 2 attacks. The first must be a counter attack, but may come at any time in the sequence of the attackers random strikes....and the defender must follow up the counter strike with something else.

    heheh sounds confusing? Maybe it is.

    We will then try to incorporate the bare minimal jumonji no kata to the above drill. Evade , lead counterattack low , jab/metsubishi high, move.

    Eventually the idea would be to work up from the bare minimal kata, by increasingly adding on the other elements of the classical kata like the balance disrupting uke nagashi, boshi ken etc....and seeing how close we can get it to the classic kata (proper Bujinkan kamae, distance etc) while still maintaining the increased speed and unknown variables.

    Make sense? Or am I making it harder then I need to.
    I hope this is not considered a thread hijack.

  2. #102

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    Jumonji no Kata is a bad example:

    Most people can't take the pressure of a full strike BoshiKen (the person using the Boshiken - without a broken thumb). And a punch to the ribs doesn't create rhythm space for the rest of the kata.

    The only useful part of jumonji no kata is the principle of how to cover up and move under pressure (behind rhythm). Of course - hardly anyone practices it like that ...

    Anyway.

    ;-)

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
    Last edited by dweidman; 7/14/2006 12:41pm at .

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Jones
    Shinbushi you should of said Bujinkan dojo sparring to get more attention.
    Yeah - it would get more attention... :-)

    But the admitted amount of cross training (by the guys sparring) makes it less Bujinkan and more MMA, neh?

    Perhaps that is good (perspective, right?)?

    May your choices be good ones...

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    Shinbushi do you get other bujinkan guys telling you that you aren't doing the r34l bujinkan? Do they screw up thier faces when you talk about aliveness?

    Personally, I'm thankful that we have it at the dojo as I consider it a critical component of my training there. I can't speak for everyone of my fellow students, but they also seem to appreciate the exposure.




    - Andre

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by dweidman
    Jumonji no Kata is a bad example:

    Most people can't take the pressure of a full strike BoshiKen (the person using the Boshiken - without a broken thumb). And a punch to the ribs doesn't create rhythm space for the rest of the kata.

    The only useful part of jumonji no kata is the principle of how to cover up and move under pressure (behind rhythm). Of course - hardly anyone practices it like that ...

    Anyway.

    ;-)

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
    Thanks Dan. I've been placing emphasis on the combonation of rib strike and mitsubishi/jab to disrupt rhythm and move. The window of opportunity to move is a little tighter this way though. Point taken.

  6. #106
    shinbushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweidman
    Yeah - it would get more attention... :-)

    But the admitted amount of cross training (by the guys sparring) makes it less Bujinkan and more MMA?

    Perhaps that is good (perspective, right?)?

    May your choices be good ones...

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
    THat is why it is in my MAD class and I did not call it Bujinkan sparring. Taijutsu is my base but I do not limit myself to it. Now my students who only take BBT could come and spar in that class, but most don't. The ones that cross train do.

  7. #107
    shinbushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfxsup64
    Personally, I'm thankful that we have it at the dojo as I consider it a critical component of my training there. I can't speak for everyone of my fellow students, but they also seem to appreciate the exposure.



    - Andre
    The only ones that did not like it left.
    And Welcome to Bullshido.

  8. #108
    shinbushi's Avatar
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    2 newbies in a tread outside Newbietown. Omega should be along soon.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by seattletcj
    Thanks Dan. I've been placing emphasis on the combonation of rib strike and mitsubishi/jab to disrupt rhythm and move. The window of opportunity to move is a little tighter this way though. Point taken.
    Hm....


    It is rediculously hard to get in two strikes with elevation change using the same arm.

    Most of the time you will get stuffed - and then you will be eating the business end of whatever he is throwing...

    Best case is a hard rib strike and a nerfed jab... which isn't exactly "best" case...

    The eye capture (jab) is pure gravy...

    The kata is a get the hell out of Dodge technique - from behind rhythm...

    Rhythm breaks...

    Anyway...

    May your choices be good ones.

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by shinbushi
    THat is why it is in my MAD class and I did not call it Bujinkan sparring. Taijutsu is my base but I do not limit myself to it. Now my students who only take BBT could come and spar in that class, but most don't. The ones that cross train do.
    I know.

    :-)

    -Daniel Weidman
    Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

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