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  1. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 2:35pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As i said in the PM thanks for your thought out review.
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    More aggression Aggression gets a bad name. Dive in take a chance on getting hit or submitted. Go ahead and fail at a technique, this is the only way to get better. Go to work with a bruised eye and ego. Now you said they have been trained to be defensive. It looks like you have told them to spar using specific Taijutsu techniques. If you are, you need to let the Taijutsu stay out of sparring. You can clean up there strikes but try not to hamstring the spontaneity by giving them specifics.
    Now the class that I am tape is what I call M.A.D. (Multi-art drills) I work transitions from each range (some I have learned from SBG seminars some from Nagato Sensei), Pummeling, some jits with hits, then the students and if time Me spar. They can use anything that they have trained in. San is Part Turkish and going to do some Turkish wrestling this summer in Turkey. I am looking forward to see if e brings back anything useful to his game. They are not limited to taijutsu but, I did say for the video that If they could get some Bujinkan waza like Ganseki or use some shutos that would be great. San uses shutos anyways and stomp kicks.
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    I would restructure your whole class IMO. Find out what people want and teach them the proper way.
    Originally I taught the following each class Kata Alive Drills then sparring. Now I have separated the kata classes and the alive one. I realized that the goals were different.
    Traditional training
    • Learning in the order of the Bujinkan teacher's manual to develop certain movement patterns.
    • Need to become skilled at the Go Gyo and Kihon Happo (Bujinkan Basics).
    • Get familiar with each of the traditions taught in the Bujinkan.

    Alive Training
    • Working on drills to develop certain fighting attributes.
    • Conditioning.
    • Learning techniques based upon difficulty and more importantly higher percentage moves first like Osoto Gake(outside reap) way before Omote Gyaku (main wrist reversal).
    • I-method

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Now, if teaching is your income I can understand your reluctance.
    No one has said it but I will. It took me a while to accept it when I quit teaching. You aren't doing BJK or Taijutsu any type of service.
    Yes I do. Why is it a disservice. Are you saying that I need to close to retool? Or teach only kata until I get to some point in my training? I could not go back and my students don't want me to go back to kata only. This point kinda flows into your final point so I will add to this then.
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    You are doing MT to help fix things in Taijutsu. So, you'll have modified MT/Taijutsu kicks or striking ability. I'll assume you were learning BJJ with the same instructor as your student. Well, now you are doing Taijutsu/BJJ modified techniques.
    From a SBG perspective, (My BJJ instructor was Chris Haueter) I use mostly (Though not completely) the delivery systems from Boxing and BJJ and add techniques tactics, strategy from budo taijutsu. Now In the sparring you also saw round Kicks in the Sparring because it is a mixed class. I don't teach muay Thai techniques or combos in the taijutsu alive classes. Now look at Muay Thai when they came across boxing in the US they adopted boxing handwork and footwork. look at Muay Thai in Thailand mostly straight in, in the US more moving around, slipping etc. And I had always been told and even the ones that don't train alive have said the kata style techniques are not what you would do in a fight ...I mean survival situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    There is nothing wrong with teaching what you know. Hell, take a look at Omega and Asia, just do it on your own. I know of (Not personally) many schools who have seen the light and transformed without closing down. Are you saying there is a problem with having a Muay Thai and/or a BJJ teacher come in and teach and me training with the students? Why? I don't know for sure but SBG Canada looks like they were a karate school that saw the light and morphed into SBG CA. But for the longest time still called themselves CBK (Canada's Best Karate) until like last year (At least on the web) and now are Martial Arts Planet. If they only knew about MAP. :lol: I assume that as he started aliveness he changed his school over, now maybe Aesopian can shed some light on this if he knows.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 3:05pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes I do. Why is it a disservice. Are you saying that I need to close to retool? Or teach only kata until I get to some point in my training? I could not go back and my students don't want me to go back to kata only. This point kinda flows into your final point so I will add to this then
    No you don't need to close your school. What I see though is MMA with a Taijutsu base. It leads to the huge well you aren't really doing blah blah blah. Basically what you hear argued about Chuck Liddell.


    From a SBG perspective, (My BJJ instructor was Chris Haueter) I use mostly (Though not completely) the delivery systems from Boxing and BJJ and add techniques tactics, strategy from budo taijutsu. Now In the sparring you also saw round Kicks in the Sparring because it is a mixed class. I don't teach muay Thai techniques or combos in the taijutsu alive classes. Now look at Muay Thai when they came across boxing in the US they adopted boxing handwork and footwork. look at Muay Thai in Thailand mostly straight in, in the US more moving around, slipping etc. And I had always been told and even the ones that don't train alive have said the kata style techniques are not what you would do in a fight ...I mean survival situation.
    Actually, I think what you are trying to do is a good thing for your students. It is also a good thing for yourself. It also leads to the crap that has happened to so called TMA's. I wasn't clear enough and I see by your responses why. I think you need to sit down (close came to mind because of my situation) and think up a good game plan. Your students seem a little overwhelmed by to much information from to many sources.

    I know of (Not personally) many schools who have seen the light and transformed without closing down. Are you saying there is a problem with having a Muay Thai and/or a BJJ teacher come in and teach and me training with the students? Why? I don't know for sure but SBG Canada looks like they were a karate school that saw the light and morphed into SBG CA. But for the longest time still called themselves CBK (Canada's Best Karate) until like last year (At least on the web) and now are Martial Arts Planet. If they only knew about MAP. I assume that as he started aliveness he changed his school over, now maybe Aesopian can shed some light on this if he knows.
    I believe all so called TMAs should have other instructors teach consistenly like you. It is the ones that only have seminars, every few months, that are crapplers. When I say retool it is exactly what you said above. Name change included. Basically don't let the BJK take credit for what you do even if you love Taijutsu.

    I should probably pay you a visit one day. No ego involved or challenge. It is easier to observe a class than try to critique your school/sparring on one video.
  3. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 3:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    shinbushi, how do you find some of the more "involved" motions hold up under harder levels of contact and resistance? Do you find them being expressed in other ways, such as sensitivity, good striking mechanics, etc or do they have a tendency to disappear in favor of more gross (comparitively) set of motions? I am talking at say you and your senior student's levels of experience.

    Again, as one of many, good on ya for the sparring, etc, etc.
  4. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 5:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't personally believe that taijutsu basics such as the san-shin, kihon and the kamae provide a good starting point to lead up to "real" fighting. Right now I'm trying to work all the bad taijutsu habits out of my system. I don't know if I've misread you, plese correct me if I did, but I believe the assumption that bujinkan kata and basics lead up to more realistic and useable habits needs to be questioned.
  5. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 5:52pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I don't personally believe that taijutsu basics such as the san-shin, kihon and the kamae provide a good starting point to lead up to "real" fighting. Right now I'm trying to work all the bad taijutsu habits out of my system. I don't know if I've misread you, plese correct me if I did, but I believe the assumption that bujinkan kata and basics lead up to more realistic and useable habits needs to be questioned.
    Yes you misread. The things you mentioned are important for Kata training.
    That is why I don't do them in the Alive classes
  6. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 6:04pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    shinbushi, how do you find some of the more "involved" motions hold up under harder levels of contact and resistance? Do you find them being expressed in other ways, such as sensitivity, good striking mechanics, etc or do they have a tendency to disappear in favor of more gross (comparitively) set of motions? I am talking at say you and your senior student's levels of experience.

    Again, as one of many, good on ya for the sparring, etc, etc.
    Thanks for the props. By involved techniques do you mean movements that require fine motor skills or complex techniques. For fine motor skills techniques like wrist locks we don't do them much in the alive class. Once in a while I will drill them by having the feeder with one boxing glove, grab his partner and start to punch him. The tori is trying to apply the lock before he gets the crap beat out of him. If he cannot pull off the initial lock he covers up ala Crazy Monkey and clinches, restart.
    If you mean complex techniques, 2 weeks ago I tried a technique called Ebi Tori (Shrimp capture) in sparring. Ebi Tori is where the attacker kicks (front, stomp, teep, mae geri) and you catch the leg then with the other arm you help flip him over causing him to fall face and chest on the ground in front of you (HE looks like a shrimp), then you can do a a figure 4 lock(I think I have the right name)
    or there is this Nagato style leg lock that is hard to describe. Maybe I will demo it and post it. I Did not plan it, it was just there so I went for it, and paid for it. I was on the bottom having to fight my way out. Now I have had my students drill this one alive, I have not done it much outside of kata and paid for it that class.
  7. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 7:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinbushi
    Yes you misread. The things you mentioned are important for Kata training.
    That is why I don't do them in the Alive classes
    OK so they are kept seperate. Thanks for clarifying.
  8. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 8:36pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Virus,
    i may have run my post together but, Iiused to have them in one class but after 6 months to a year I realized they needed to be seperate.
  9. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 8:45pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    No you don't need to close your school. What I see though is MMA with a Taijutsu base. It leads to the huge well you aren't really doing blah blah blah. Basically what you hear argued about Chuck Liddell.
    I have already gotten some of that. They guy you introduced me said that I was becoming MMA in a black gi a tabi.
  10. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/13/2006 10:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shinbushi do you get other bujinkan guys telling you that you aren't doing the r34l bujinkan? Do they screw up thier faces when you talk about aliveness?
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