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  1. QuickJab is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 12:01pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    BJJ vs Catch Wrestling

    I was wondering if any of the Gracies other than Helio ever had any grappling matches against Catch Wrestlers. It would amke alot of sense, according to the timeline. Many Judoka wrestled in CACC including Mitsuyo Maeda (teacher of the Gracies) and Kimura. The only BJJ-Catch match that I've heard of is a match between Helio Gracie and Wladek Zbyzsko which ended in a 15 min draw. To Zbyzsko's defense, he was 53 and the match included the use of the Gi, which he was not accustomed to. I figure, given the timeline, there HAD to have been some other Gracie-Catch matches.
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 5:52pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know about BJJ specifically, but there were numerous contests between early Kodokan judo and/or "sport jiujitsu" fighters and champions of other wrestling styles during the early decades of the 1900s. In Europe, Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi fought hundreds (possibly thousands) of such bouts, and there were some high-profile JJ vs. wrestling shoots in the USA as well. The gi often seems to have been a deciding factor, either way. We've covered many of the details and links in recent threads on this forum.
  3. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 5:58pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The answer is dependent on how many CACC guys there were in S.America. If there weren't many I doubt there were many matches.

    The Kimura-Gracie match occured in part because of the (relatively) large Japanese community in Brazil.
  4. QuickJab is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 6:05pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know about the Judo/JJ vs Catch matches, thats why I find it strange that the Gracies didn't have more matches against Catch wrestlers. Since Brazil had a sizable Japanese community and the Japanese were involved in all these matches against Catch wrestlers, you would think they would have had at least a few.
  5. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 6:43pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You realize there was no internet right?
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 6:49pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It might just be that there weren't too many catch wrestlers living in Brazil; old-school Lancashire catch was still being practiced in parts of England at that time, and it was mutating into pro-wrestling in the USA. Were there any European or American pro-wrestlers touring South America who were able to shoot catch-style?
  7. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 6:58pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why few bjj vs. catch matches:
    Bjj really got going in the middle of the 20th century. There was a little war going on at the time. When BJJ went international (Kimura vs. Gracie) in 1951 catch had largely turned into nonsense in the US.

    There wasn't the overlap between bjj and catch that there was with the early kodokan and catch.
  8. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2006 11:53am


     Style: MMA/JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Historically, there's always been a lot of rivalry in Brazil between Jiu Jitsu and Luta Livre. A lot of matches.

    'Luta Livre', in case you don't know, is 'Freestyle Wrestling' in Portuguese.

    The Luta Livre guys in Brazil are known for three things. Olympic freestyle wrestling, show wrestling and Vale Tudo. I'm not sure if it's always been the case, but the current Luta Livre guys definitely know submissions.

    So maybe the problem is just that it was never called 'Catch' in Brazil.
  9. daigoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/20/2006 12:14pm


     Style: MT (no, not "empty")

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    It might just be that there weren't too many catch wrestlers living in Brazil; old-school Lancashire catch was still being practiced in parts of England at that time, and it was mutating into pro-wrestling in the USA. Were there any European or American pro-wrestlers touring South America who were able to shoot catch-style?
    Oddly enough, this came up in conversation with my dad the other day. We were watching the World Cup and did some channelsurfing during the half. WWE was on and my dad mentioned traveling wrestling shows that would come by his hometown (he grew up in Peru). I was suprised because he specifically mentioned "Catch as Catch Can" since my dad has zero knowledge of MAs ouside of the "Karate Kid". His memories were a bit fuzzy (this was in the late 1940s/early 50s) but he described one wrestler who used a technique that sounded like a Boston Crab.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/20/2006 3:34pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Catch-hold, catch-as-can, catch-as-catch-can, Lancashire catch, etc. were all terms used to describe broadly the same wrestling style from the 1800s onwards. The main distinction was that unlike most British regional styles (Cumberland/Westmoreland, Cornu/Breton, collar-and-elbow, etc.) the Lancashire style did not have a prescribed hold and included both ground fighting and submission or "pain" holds.

    Many different styles of European and Asian wrestling became blended together during the first pro-wrestling book period of the late 1800s and early 1900s. because catch was an unusually freestyle form of wrestling, it played a major role in the evolution of modern pro-wrestling.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Riley for information on Billy Riley's "Snake Pit" catch wrestling gym in the '30s, and http://www.riverhorse.tv/projects/proj_catch.htm for information about a recent documentary on traditional Lancashire catch.
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