224968 Bullies, 3296 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 22
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 12 3 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    10/05/2006 10:31pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    It makes me sad to hear another story of the Gracie Gift being diseminated to public. The fact that this shitty, sub-par pass is being taught to our soldiers is a fucking travesty.

    I move we have Rorion stripped of citizenship and sent back to Brazil on grounds of being a traitor. Because I can't think of any other reason other than sabotage to teach this **** to our servicemen.
    I've seen the US army syllabus, FM25-150 I believe? Confirm the Gracie gift is in there.

    Did the Gracies get invited to set the syllabus? Pardon my ignorance, but do they use this stuff themselves in actual UFC fights in the past?

    Perhaps this syllabus was done long ago before BJJ became commonplace, I've heard that the current syllabus has changed.
  2. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    2,147

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 7:19am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not related to military, but related to the gracie gift, my judo instructor got fed up with me dominating on the ground by pulling guard, so he decided to teach everyone how to "break that leg sissor". He taught them the gracie gift. Now he is in the process of teaching them how to stand up when I triangle choke them.
  3. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 9:42am


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp
    Not related to military, but related to the gracie gift, my judo instructor got fed up with me dominating on the ground by pulling guard, so he decided to teach everyone how to "break that leg sissor". He taught them the gracie gift. Now he is in the process of teaching them how to stand up when I triangle choke them.
    This is so funny that everyone has a similar experience. I myself watched the tape and practiced that awful guard pass, and got triangled in MMA class by a Judo white belt, who has been doing BJJ longer than me.

    My first thoughts when I watched the Gracie Gift being taught is that, man, that's a lot of work to just pass someone's guard. If he escapes and gets into the guard again, and I have to go through all that again, it will really suck.

    Imagine I get him in cross mount and he shrimps and reguards and I have to do that all over again.
  4. datdamnmachine is offline
    datdamnmachine's Avatar

    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    1,721

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 10:52am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp
    Not related to military, but related to the gracie gift, my judo instructor got fed up with me dominating on the ground by pulling guard, so he decided to teach everyone how to "break that leg sissor". He taught them the gracie gift. Now he is in the process of teaching them how to stand up when I triangle choke them.
    Yeah, that was good stuff. I remember the old Gracie vidoe with Renzo and Craig K. saying we will show the move, but don't use it cause you'll get triangled...then don't show the fucking move. There are some moves that you can do where the counter would be a submission but with the triangle, it's just too obvious, even to someone with no experience who's watched UFC fights on Spike. Back to the military....

    The main problem is again is the fact that standardization takes so long that what you are tryign to standardize becomes out of date. I've only seen the new FM that deals with ground fighting. At least military is understanding the fact that even if you don't want to go to the ground, sometimes, you may not have a choice. The one problem I see is training the techniques. When I was in, everything was trained from a manual that had the movements in them written down. I can see some SGT with no experience reading off the moves for the students to do from the field manual. Very problematic. It's like some noob trying to teach a BJJ class from Helio's "The Master Text". There is no quick fix. The fact is, the units will need to get some local experienced martial artists, do monthly classes, encourage soldiers to take classes(whether BJJ, FMA, Muay Thai, etc...anything that helps with the overall picture of self defense) and as they get better over time, they can then properly teach new recruits.

    The one hope I do have, is the fact that they are starting to understand that static drills with no resistance does not equal self defense. One problem with that is that of injuries. I can see some unit/commanders/supervisors being restrictive on training if some injuries occur which will cause the program to look less Straight Blast Gym and more like Bujinkan. Again, I left the Army in 2003 so things may have changed...may! Anyone want to sound off on that.

    P.S. Unrelated but somewhat related(lol) is the Army PT program. Where is it at now? When I was in it was pushups/situps/2 mile run. Has that changed?
  5. Spezza is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    137

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 12:12pm


     Style: Escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The pass that people refer to as the "Gracie Gift" is an ADVANCED not a "beginner" guard pass. Some in BJJ don't understand this, which is understandable, considering when BJJ was introducted to this country.

    It is an "old-School" way of passing where it is actually VERY hard for your opponent to Triangle or Armbar you because you are controlling their hips with your torso. BUT it doesn't yeild benefits immediately. First, you have to develop the ability to control your opponent's buttocks/hips with just your torso and posture, along with, obviously, leaning how to keep your "inside" arm glued to your hips/torso.

    So then why even teach this pass to beginners...?

    Because it is considered a BJJ fundamental, like getting on your toes when you box. No beginners in boxing like the feel of being on the balls of their feet, but after a little while, you see and feel the benefits.

    Same thing with this way of passing.

    It teaches the fundamentals to a whole style of passing. It is good because you are so close to your opponent your can jam/crush his hip leg movement.

    Now, --this is important to understand-- this style of passing went out of "vogue" in the Brazilian tournament scene in the 80's / 90's as new generations of players started passing in new ways that didn't demand that you learn this fundamental skilll first. Even my BJJ teacher who is a Brazilian Champion, etc doesn't pass this way BUT he explained it to me. He said a lot of the guys of his teacher's generation only pass this way.

    The longer I am in BJJ, the higher my appreciation of this style of passing gets. I have rolled with a two people who do it really well and it is great, BUT if you are a noobie you WILL get Triangled by a better opponent.

    I was taught this style of pass by Prof. Alvaro Barreto(8th degree under helio) at a seminar & private. I have played with it some, but more often I fall back on the methods I have leanred from my teacher. Because I learned this method from Prof. Barreto after I had already been in BJJ for 8 years and had a lot of "habits". Still, I think it works very well.

    If you go to most any of the old-School BJJ black belts, they can show you this pass. Many like Joe Moreira (who is "semi-old school") use this as their MAIN pass from Closed Guard.

    There is no problem with the pass, the problem was with Rorion & Renzo's very popular videos not explaining what it was & why they were teaching it. Then people go to a BJJ school taught by the younger generation of BB's who never learned that style of passing, and the student thinks: "Wow, that was some B.S. Renzo & Rorion had on their tapes!"
    Last edited by Spezza; 10/06/2006 6:21pm at . Reason: spelling
  6. Epicurus is offline

    I'm grindin' 'till I'm tired...

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,492

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 1:17pm


     Style: Judo. Some BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The stance described in the original post sounds atrocious, and the idea that you shouldn't get your whole body behind punches and kicks... is... I don't know what to say. Punching with just your arms is one of the biggest pitfalls of untrained strikers, so how in HELL did it end up in a style intended for soldiers?
  7. yanta is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Oceanside, CA
    Posts
    92

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 1:32pm


     Style: Taiji for now, damnitall

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Colonelpong, I'm a US Marine. Back in the day I was a low-level (read: unskilled) LINE instructor, and I'm now a low-level (read: really unskilled) MCMAP instructor. Is there anything specific you want to know about the systems?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    L.I.N.E. (linear infighting neural-override engagement) is c.q.c of the vietnam era. The opponent ends up dead at the end of every sequence by either heel stomp to the face or throat, breaking the neck, hammerfisting the throat until dead, or if they are on their stomach dropping a knee on their spine. Generally speaking, just very evil ****.
    Yes, LINE is nasty. But the techniques were not over-complicated and they dropped very nicely into muscle memory after a few sessions -- so much so that, when one of my Marines decided to trick the Lt by attacking from the other side ('cause, you know, there are no left-handed Marines), I put him on the ground without even thinking about it. And I'm not a very big person. Vicious, easy, not a bad system for what it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    McMapp is the current system used by the marines. It is more of policing style than combative. You only use lethal force when absolutely necessary. It's got a ground game that gives it a distinctive mma flavor.
    Hee hee. The first time I told a friend I was doing MCMAP she asked if I wanted fries with that. Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. There are some basic grappling and throwing techniques from BJJ and Judo, an Aikido-style wristlock or two, a couple really awful ukemi techniques, and lots of different and increasingly complicated strikes and kicks. He's right about the MMA/sportfighting flavor, but I certainly didn't learn a whole lot about groundfighting. We spend lots of time on rifle retention and smashing techniques, and what they call "weapons of opportunity" (read: sticks. I like sticks. Gimme a stick and you're all in trouble).

    Quote Originally Posted by colonelpong
    3). I know there are a fair few current and former soldiers on this site. I was wondering if any have been in a situation in which their military taught h to h training was applied in an operational environment?

    4). Any one got any really funny anecdotes on this topic?
    Both of these get answered by one story. I was in Kosovo in 2001-02. Pretty permissive environment, not a whole lot of bad guy activity in the city I was in. On one patrol the local village crazy kid, who was obviously badly mentally retarded and couldn't speak or walk straight, came after me. He grabbed my wrist.

    Honest to god.

    He grabbed my wrist.

    He had that crazy-person strength and tried to pull me into the street, babbling away. A couple of my Marines (one of whom was a very large individual and a police officer in civilian life) got real agitated and came racing over ready to grind the guy into the dirt. Muscle memory took over and I used a simple turning wristlock (kotegaeshi -- don't know what else it's called but everyone on the planet uses it. It's taught in both LINE and MCMAP). I let go before he hit the ground, and he rolled away and ran before the charging Marines could squish him.

    So, while I can't vouch for H2H combat in a gun battle (and honestly I don't ever want to -- if it comes down to me kicking or punching a bad guy the plan has gone VERY wrong) I can tell you that I had to use a basic wristlock against a crazy Albanian kid in Gjilan who -- I swear I am not making this up -- grabbed my wrist. I've been laughing about that one for years.

    ~yanta
  8. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 8:54pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spezza
    The pass that people refer to as the "Gracie Gift" is an ADVANCED not a "beginner" guard pass. Some in BJJ don't understand this, which is understandable, considering when BJJ was introducted to this country.

    It is an "old-School" way of passing where it is actually VERY hard for your opponent to Triangle or Armbar you because you are controlling their hips with your torso. BUT it doesn't yeild benefits immediately. First, you have to develop the ability to control your opponent's buttocks/hips with just your torso and posture, along with, obviously, leaning how to keep your "inside" arm glued to your hips/torso.
    Spezza,
    How do you control your opponent's hips with your torso when he has you in his guard? It's more like he's controlling you isn't it?

    Chris Haueter did a seminar at my MMA/BJJ gym some time back and he mentioned to avoid guard passes with one hand in and one hand out, and I immediately thought of the Gracie gift. He said you either want both hands in, or both hands out. That some people might pull it off but we should just avoid it.
  9. Spezza is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    137

    Posted On:
    10/06/2006 11:34pm


     Style: Escrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PPlate
    Spezza,
    How do you control your opponent's hips with your torso when he has you in his guard? It's more like he's controlling you isn't it?

    Chris Haueter did a seminar at my MMA/BJJ gym some time back and he mentioned to avoid guard passes with one hand in and one hand out, and I immediately thought of the Gracie gift. He said you either want both hands in, or both hands out. That some people might pull it off but we should just avoid it.
    Well, Chris Hauter is a "New School" guy, by BJJ standards.

    What he said is what pretty much everyone says about guard passing these days. Keeping "both arms in or both arms out" is Modern BJJ101.

    BUT there is also a "Classical BJJ 101" if you will; an old-school way to do things. One of the fundamental of which is this pass.

    Boxers used different structures 50 years ago, were they wrong? No, the sport changes and evolves. But for one to think a pro boxer from 50 years ago was some kind of "clueless joke" that couldn't fight would be very wrong. Same thing with people who pass this way.

    Like I said, this was the way to pass the closed Guard a generation ago; those who learned this approach often still do it (because it works), but the vast majority of BJJ players today DO NOT use this type of old-school pass.

    My point is when people "make fun" of this pass, it is just because they do not understand it.

    To answer your question: The problem with this pass; is that it works great or can fail badly IF you are not good with it. I'm pretty sure that's why it was abandoned over time, because there was too difficult of a learning curve.

    Basically, you keep your opponent's hips/buttocks pinned down on the ground in the standard manner.

    As soon as you "dig" one arm in, you are applying foward pressure with your abdomen to your opponent's legs so that your opponent is too close (with his hips too underneath you) to apply a Triangle. You never let up with that pressure throughout the pass.

    At the same time you "glue" your other elbow to your torso.

    You must co-ordinate these two arm movements.

    Immediately push off the balls of your feet so that you are now in a standard knee-over-shoulder pass position.

    At this point you have your stomach over your opponent's buttocks and are in a sprawl. You need to keep your head up & hips down. This posture keeps your opponent from being able to lock the triangle.

    From here, pass either direction.

    That's the basic idea.

    Sorry, I'm really not great at descriptions. Besides, this pass you have to really feel; it's ALL about the relative positioning of your/his abdomen & hips.
    Last edited by Spezza; 10/06/2006 11:59pm at .
  10. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    10/07/2006 6:25am


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Spezza,
    Basically what you're saying is (and Rorion didn't teach) is:

    1) Keep your weight on his hips once one arm gets through
    2) keep head up and hips down, putting whole body weight on his leg

    I see a potential problem with (1) because when you are trying to shift his leg up your shoulder, you'll need to move back and down (unless you try to muscle it). Once you do that, the weight is off him.

    - what do you do with your other hand that's on the inside? Rorion says to use it to pin the opponent's biceps, so I guess this is wrong.

    Do you hold onto his belt (gi) or press down on his abdonmen (no gi)?

    I will give it a try in my next class to see if it works.

    However, since this is such a risky guard pass, why would anyone choose to do it, other than for sentimental "old school" reasons?

    Like to hear your thoughts.
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 12 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.