I've seen the US army syllabus, FM25-150 I believe? Confirm the Gracie gift is in there.
Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
Did the Gracies get invited to set the syllabus? Pardon my ignorance, but do they use this stuff themselves in actual UFC fights in the past?
Perhaps this syllabus was done long ago before BJJ became commonplace, I've heard that the current syllabus has changed.
Not related to military, but related to the gracie gift, my judo instructor got fed up with me dominating on the ground by pulling guard, so he decided to teach everyone how to "break that leg sissor". He taught them the gracie gift. Now he is in the process of teaching them how to stand up when I triangle choke them.
This is so funny that everyone has a similar experience. I myself watched the tape and practiced that awful guard pass, and got triangled in MMA class by a Judo white belt, who has been doing BJJ longer than me.
Originally Posted by FictionPimp
My first thoughts when I watched the Gracie Gift being taught is that, man, that's a lot of work to just pass someone's guard. If he escapes and gets into the guard again, and I have to go through all that again, it will really suck.
Imagine I get him in cross mount and he shrimps and reguards and I have to do that all over again.
Yeah, that was good stuff. I remember the old Gracie vidoe with Renzo and Craig K. saying we will show the move, but don't use it cause you'll get triangled...then don't show the fucking move. There are some moves that you can do where the counter would be a submission but with the triangle, it's just too obvious, even to someone with no experience who's watched UFC fights on Spike. Back to the military....
Originally Posted by FictionPimp
The main problem is again is the fact that standardization takes so long that what you are tryign to standardize becomes out of date. I've only seen the new FM that deals with ground fighting. At least military is understanding the fact that even if you don't want to go to the ground, sometimes, you may not have a choice. The one problem I see is training the techniques. When I was in, everything was trained from a manual that had the movements in them written down. I can see some SGT with no experience reading off the moves for the students to do from the field manual. Very problematic. It's like some noob trying to teach a BJJ class from Helio's "The Master Text". There is no quick fix. The fact is, the units will need to get some local experienced martial artists, do monthly classes, encourage soldiers to take classes(whether BJJ, FMA, Muay Thai, etc...anything that helps with the overall picture of self defense) and as they get better over time, they can then properly teach new recruits.
The one hope I do have, is the fact that they are starting to understand that static drills with no resistance does not equal self defense. One problem with that is that of injuries. I can see some unit/commanders/supervisors being restrictive on training if some injuries occur which will cause the program to look less Straight Blast Gym and more like Bujinkan. Again, I left the Army in 2003 so things may have changed...may! Anyone want to sound off on that.
P.S. Unrelated but somewhat related(lol) is the Army PT program. Where is it at now? When I was in it was pushups/situps/2 mile run. Has that changed?
The pass that people refer to as the "Gracie Gift" is an ADVANCED not a "beginner" guard pass. Some in BJJ don't understand this, which is understandable, considering when BJJ was introducted to this country.
It is an "old-School" way of passing where it is actually VERY hard for your opponent to Triangle or Armbar you because you are controlling their hips with your torso. BUT it doesn't yeild benefits immediately. First, you have to develop the ability to control your opponent's buttocks/hips with just your torso and posture, along with, obviously, leaning how to keep your "inside" arm glued to your hips/torso.
So then why even teach this pass to beginners...?
Because it is considered a BJJ fundamental, like getting on your toes when you box. No beginners in boxing like the feel of being on the balls of their feet, but after a little while, you see and feel the benefits.
Same thing with this way of passing.
It teaches the fundamentals to a whole style of passing. It is good because you are so close to your opponent your can jam/crush his hip leg movement.
Now, --this is important to understand-- this style of passing went out of "vogue" in the Brazilian tournament scene in the 80's / 90's as new generations of players started passing in new ways that didn't demand that you learn this fundamental skilll first. Even my BJJ teacher who is a Brazilian Champion, etc doesn't pass this way BUT he explained it to me. He said a lot of the guys of his teacher's generation only pass this way.
The longer I am in BJJ, the higher my appreciation of this style of passing gets. I have rolled with a two people who do it really well and it is great, BUT if you are a noobie you WILL get Triangled by a better opponent.
I was taught this style of pass by Prof. Alvaro Barreto(8th degree under helio) at a seminar & private. I have played with it some, but more often I fall back on the methods I have leanred from my teacher. Because I learned this method from Prof. Barreto after I had already been in BJJ for 8 years and had a lot of "habits". Still, I think it works very well.
If you go to most any of the old-School BJJ black belts, they can show you this pass. Many like Joe Moreira (who is "semi-old school") use this as their MAIN pass from Closed Guard.
There is no problem with the pass, the problem was with Rorion & Renzo's very popular videos not explaining what it was & why they were teaching it. Then people go to a BJJ school taught by the younger generation of BB's who never learned that style of passing, and the student thinks: "Wow, that was some B.S. Renzo & Rorion had on their tapes!"
Last edited by Spezza; 10/06/2006 6:21pm at .
The stance described in the original post sounds atrocious, and the idea that you shouldn't get your whole body behind punches and kicks... is... I don't know what to say. Punching with just your arms is one of the biggest pitfalls of untrained strikers, so how in HELL did it end up in a style intended for soldiers?
Colonelpong, I'm a US Marine. Back in the day I was a low-level (read: unskilled) LINE instructor, and I'm now a low-level (read: really unskilled) MCMAP instructor. Is there anything specific you want to know about the systems?
Yes, LINE is nasty. But the techniques were not over-complicated and they dropped very nicely into muscle memory after a few sessions -- so much so that, when one of my Marines decided to trick the Lt by attacking from the other side ('cause, you know, there are no left-handed Marines), I put him on the ground without even thinking about it. And I'm not a very big person. Vicious, easy, not a bad system for what it was.
Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
Hee hee. The first time I told a friend I was doing MCMAP she asked if I wanted fries with that. Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. There are some basic grappling and throwing techniques from BJJ and Judo, an Aikido-style wristlock or two, a couple really awful ukemi techniques, and lots of different and increasingly complicated strikes and kicks. He's right about the MMA/sportfighting flavor, but I certainly didn't learn a whole lot about groundfighting. We spend lots of time on rifle retention and smashing techniques, and what they call "weapons of opportunity" (read: sticks. I like sticks. Gimme a stick and you're all in trouble).
Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
Both of these get answered by one story. I was in Kosovo in 2001-02. Pretty permissive environment, not a whole lot of bad guy activity in the city I was in. On one patrol the local village crazy kid, who was obviously badly mentally retarded and couldn't speak or walk straight, came after me. He grabbed my wrist.
Originally Posted by colonelpong
Honest to god.
He grabbed my wrist.
He had that crazy-person strength and tried to pull me into the street, babbling away. A couple of my Marines (one of whom was a very large individual and a police officer in civilian life) got real agitated and came racing over ready to grind the guy into the dirt. Muscle memory took over and I used a simple turning wristlock (kotegaeshi -- don't know what else it's called but everyone on the planet uses it. It's taught in both LINE and MCMAP). I let go before he hit the ground, and he rolled away and ran before the charging Marines could squish him.
So, while I can't vouch for H2H combat in a gun battle (and honestly I don't ever want to -- if it comes down to me kicking or punching a bad guy the plan has gone VERY wrong) I can tell you that I had to use a basic wristlock against a crazy Albanian kid in Gjilan who -- I swear I am not making this up -- grabbed my wrist. I've been laughing about that one for years.
Originally Posted by Spezza
How do you control your opponent's hips with your torso when he has you in his guard? It's more like he's controlling you isn't it?
Chris Haueter did a seminar at my MMA/BJJ gym some time back and he mentioned to avoid guard passes with one hand in and one hand out, and I immediately thought of the Gracie gift. He said you either want both hands in, or both hands out. That some people might pull it off but we should just avoid it.
Well, Chris Hauter is a "New School" guy, by BJJ standards.
Originally Posted by PPlate
What he said is what pretty much everyone says about guard passing these days. Keeping "both arms in or both arms out" is Modern BJJ101.
BUT there is also a "Classical BJJ 101" if you will; an old-school way to do things. One of the fundamental of which is this pass.
Boxers used different structures 50 years ago, were they wrong? No, the sport changes and evolves. But for one to think a pro boxer from 50 years ago was some kind of "clueless joke" that couldn't fight would be very wrong. Same thing with people who pass this way.
Like I said, this was the way to pass the closed Guard a generation ago; those who learned this approach often still do it (because it works), but the vast majority of BJJ players today DO NOT use this type of old-school pass.
My point is when people "make fun" of this pass, it is just because they do not understand it.
To answer your question: The problem with this pass; is that it works great or can fail badly IF you are not good with it. I'm pretty sure that's why it was abandoned over time, because there was too difficult of a learning curve.
Basically, you keep your opponent's hips/buttocks pinned down on the ground in the standard manner.
As soon as you "dig" one arm in, you are applying foward pressure with your abdomen to your opponent's legs so that your opponent is too close (with his hips too underneath you) to apply a Triangle. You never let up with that pressure throughout the pass.
At the same time you "glue" your other elbow to your torso.
You must co-ordinate these two arm movements.
Immediately push off the balls of your feet so that you are now in a standard knee-over-shoulder pass position.
At this point you have your stomach over your opponent's buttocks and are in a sprawl. You need to keep your head up & hips down. This posture keeps your opponent from being able to lock the triangle.
From here, pass either direction.
That's the basic idea.
Sorry, I'm really not great at descriptions. Besides, this pass you have to really feel; it's ALL about the relative positioning of your/his abdomen & hips.
Last edited by Spezza; 10/06/2006 11:59pm at .
Basically what you're saying is (and Rorion didn't teach) is:
1) Keep your weight on his hips once one arm gets through
2) keep head up and hips down, putting whole body weight on his leg
I see a potential problem with (1) because when you are trying to shift his leg up your shoulder, you'll need to move back and down (unless you try to muscle it). Once you do that, the weight is off him.
- what do you do with your other hand that's on the inside? Rorion says to use it to pin the opponent's biceps, so I guess this is wrong.
Do you hold onto his belt (gi) or press down on his abdonmen (no gi)?
I will give it a try in my next class to see if it works.
However, since this is such a risky guard pass, why would anyone choose to do it, other than for sentimental "old school" reasons?
Like to hear your thoughts.