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  1. colonelpong2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 9:03pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    More comparisons

    Hi all. I know there have been many military unarmed combat threads, but this one is a little different. Most have dealt with the subject in general terms, but I am looking more toward comparisons of specific content. Also I have a few questions at the end.

    During my own time in the military, we were "taught" two "systems".
    One is the army's official system. It was founded on some good theoretical concepts for that type of working environment, but the application of the theory was the real let down. It should of course be remembered that the body is not the primary weapon in modern combat, most emphasis is of course on firearms, explosives, tactics etc etc.

    The hand to hand theory was as follows:
    -Expect to get hit
    -Fight dirty
    -Keep it simple
    -The system must be such that it can be used with pack and webbing on
    -Never go to ground (sensible considering its intended use is in melee type close quarter combat situations where there are porobably a multitude of combatants).

    Now here comes the problem. They taught a "stance". This stance is as follows:
    Stand side on to enemy with feet shoulder width apart. Rear hand positioned near jaw. Front arm extends out from body at a ninety degree and with the elbow bent so forearm is vertical (also 90 dedgree angle). Trtanslation- Please break my ribs, I dont need them anyway.

    Then there were the strikes. They only allowed strikes off the front hand because of the short distance, and allowed four strikes with the hands.
    The palm heel (remember tin this case this is showing your palm straight out SIDEWAYS). Note the total lack of hip and leg asssistance in such a movement.
    Knife hand: Vertical to top of head or sideways for neck. Once again virtually no supporting body mechanics.
    Elbow- Straight out to the side, with the point.
    Gouge- Fingers straight out to eyes or throat

    Then there were the kicks.
    I admit that I like these kicks, but you will see where their application in this system falls down in a moment.
    Kensetsu-geri (forgive spelling)- or low sidekick to the knee.
    Stomp with foot onto knee- says it all

    Here are a few examples of the application of these techniques:

    Kick to knee- Running sidekick to knee, if enemy moves back. throw antother.... and another. End result: Guy moves out of range every time while you chase him kicking furiously off the same leg. That is until he gets bored and sm,ashes your head in. Note: When teaching this, they teach to place both hands on your rear knee "for balance" thus leaving the head totally exposed to the inevitable pounding.

    Distraction- Thrust both hands straight up into the air (literally, elbows straight and all). When enemy looks up at the m in suprise, stomp on his knee. Unless he just punches you in the face, of course.

    The lsit of examples goes on and on. The training itself was irregular, maybe once a month on average.

    Then there was this idiot second liutenant who decided to teach the paltoonh the "Ninjitsu" that he studied. No prizes for guessing how abysmal this was. The deadly armpit kick for one.
    One favourite was to turn side on and drop to pushup position in front of enemy. Then rotate so that your stomach and chest are facing him and kick horizontally for his knee. You have to see this to believe it. Most amusing.

    In conclusion, I was less than impressed by the armies efforts in this area.

    Now, the point. I am very curious to find out about the specific content of other armies hand to hand combat methods. How they train, how often, what the content is. In addition to this, I have a few specific questions.

    1). A friend of mine was attached to a US army unit in south kprea a few years ago. He said that they were actually getting BJJ training there a couple of times a week. Is this becoming standard in the us army? Or is it (as I expect) they had an instructor there who decided decent training was a good idea?

    2). I have heard Americans on this site referring to "LINE Training" in the military. I presume by the capitalisation this is an acronymn for something. If so, for what? And what does it all consist of?

    3). I know there are a fair few current and former soldiers on this site. I was wondering if any have been in a situation in which their military taught h to h training was applied in an operational environment?

    4). Any one got any really funny anecdotes on this topic?
  2. mrblackmagic is offline
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    My pleasure.

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 11:15pm

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     Style: yang taichi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having friends currently in the Marines and knowing former Marines. I got a pretty good understanding of their systems.

    L.I.N.E. (linear infighting neural-override engagement) is c.q.c of the vietnam era. The opponent ends up dead at the end of every sequence by either heel stomp to the face or throat, breaking the neck, hammerfisting the throat until dead, or if they are on their stomach dropping a knee on their spine. Generally speaking, just very evil ****.

    McMapp is the current system used by the marines. It is more of policing style than combative. You only use lethal force when absolutely necessary. It's got a ground game that gives it a distinctive mma flavor.
    Last edited by mrblackmagic; 6/14/2006 11:20pm at .
  3. colonelpong2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 12:33am

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     Style: Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Many thanks.

    "linear infighting neural-override engagement" what a typically military phrase...
  4. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 1:31am

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     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well I've been out of the military for almost 3 years. I was in from Feb. 2000 to Dec. 2003. I was not in a combat unit but the Signal Corps; tactical telecommunications, support unit if you will. In basic training we recieved about 2 hours of shitty BJJ. We used the "instant triangle choke" guard pass. I wish I would have known then when they where teaching that crap what I know now, I would have tried to triangle my drill instructor or the other recruits. After that I didn't recieve any training until I had to perform guard duty for ROTC recruits' weapons armory. We did about 90 minutes of some techniques standing up and or LT. who did Judo for 2 years did a quick sparring session. I saw what looked like some infantry guys sparring from the knees. Should have been working out with them. I didn't get to finish cause of some b.s. job they needed me to do, if I would have, I might have gotten into grappling earlier.

    Enough with my rant. I do hear in the news and whatnot that some units are putting MMA into their self defense training. It's seems like a good idea because of just doing the movements you can train them in a realistic way instead of static movements that will probably get you "teh dead"! Probably could add some FMA into it as well.

    The main issue with the military has to do with standardization. It takes them years to make something a standard and even then, it's usually in the same form that the standard was originally submitted in. Because of this, by the time it become the "de facto" it is out of date and useless. For anyone who was in the Army around the same time I was, think the Army's physical training program(PT).
  5. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 2:08am

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It makes me sad to hear another story of the Gracie Gift being diseminated to public. The fact that this shitty, sub-par pass is being taught to our soldiers is a fucking travesty.

    I move we have Rorion stripped of citizenship and sent back to Brazil on grounds of being a traitor. Because I can't think of any other reason other than sabotage to teach this **** to our servicemen.
  6. mrblackmagic is offline
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    My pleasure.

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 6:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: yang taichi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Would you ever go to the ground in a gun fight?
  7. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 7:17am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    Would you ever go to the ground in a gun fight?
    Almost always.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 6/15/2006 7:20am at .
  8. Shaolinz is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 8:43am


     Style: Muay Thai , BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pull guard and you have yourself a nice human shield as long as they don't shoot your legs.
  9. colonelpong2 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 8:34pm

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     Style: Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    Would you ever go to the ground in a gun fight?

    Hell yes! Standing up when being shot at= Bad
  10. Shard is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 9:47pm


     Style: I know Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolinz
    Pull guard and you have yourself a nice human shield as long as they don't shoot your legs.
    Settle for a half guard then. I think its better you hope that the bullets aren't a high enough caliber to go thru your human shield.
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