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  1. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:27am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    BJJ has never dominated

    This may surprise some of you guys who think MMA and BJJ are synonymous but Sherdog still lists wrestling as the dominant style in MMA competition. It lists it as such in both the current and all time stats. These stats include UFC, Pride, etc.

    Current:

    STYLE RATING

    Wrestling 32891
    Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 29833

    All Time:

    STYLE RATING

    Wrestling 219070
    Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu 167436

    http://www.sherdog.com/stats/powerratings.asp

    Sparked by another thread and the recent Hughes vs. Gracie controversy, I dug out an old issue of Black Belt Magazine from November of 1998. On page 81-87 there is an article by a guy named Christopher A. Colderley. I'd transcribe the whole article for you but I don't have all day.

    The article was written before the line between styles was as blurry as it is today. Today, a professional MMA fighter studies a number of styles. Both wrestling and BJJ will be in his arsenal. Back in 1998, you could still see some distinction between guys who listed their style as wrestling and guys who listed it as BJJ.

    The first UFC took place in 1993. This article examines the stats from 1993 to 1998. It provides a table listing these stats. Let's take a look at what they knew back in 1998.

    TABLE I: Top Three Styles in the UFC

    1 Wrestling 44-21-0
    2 Jujutsu 29-20-1
    3 Shootfighting 26-9-2

    TABLE II: UFC Records and Winning Percentages of Styles

    Shootfighting 26-9-2 74.3%
    Sambo 7-3-1 70.0%
    Wrestling 44-21-0 67.7%
    Jujutsu 29-20-1 59.2%
    Pitfighting 11-8-0 57.9%
    Boxing 3-5-0 37.5%
    Kickboxing 13-24-0 35.1%
    Karate 10-22-0 31.3%
    Kung Fu 4-12-0 25%

    TABLE III: Victories in Tournament Finals, Superfights and Championships

    Wrestling 16 wins 11 losses
    Jujutsu 6 wins 5 losses
    Shootfighting 10 wins 1 losses
    Sambo 1 win 1 losses
    Vale Tudo 1 win 0 losses
    Kickboxing 2 wins 1 loss
    Ninjutsu 1 win o losses

    TABLE IV: Top 15 Fighters, by Wins

    Royce Gracie Jujutsu 11-0-1 100%
    Don Frye Wrestling 9-1-0 90%
    Dan Severn Wrestling 9-3-0 75%
    David "Tank" Abbot Pitfighting 8-6-0 57.1%
    Mark Coleman Wrestling 6-2-0 75%
    Ken Shamrock Shootfighting 6-2-2 75%
    Oleg Taktarov Sambo 6-2-1 75%
    Jerry Bohlander Shootfighting 5-1-0 83.3%
    Randy Couture Wrestling 4-0-0 100%
    Mark Kerr Wrestling 4-0-0 100%
    Guy Mezger Kickboxingg 4-0-0 100%
    Vitor Belfort Jujutsu 4-1-0 80%
    Marco Ruas Vale Tudo 4-1-0 80%
    Pat Smith Kickboxing 4-2-0 66.7%

    It's clear that wrestlers were doing better than BJJ stylists even before wrestlers knew all the BJJ strategies and submissions. If the Gracie family wants to gloat about how wrestlers like Matt Hughes only win because they know BJJ then maybe they should take all the takedowns they learned from wrestlers out of BJJ. Maybe they should also ask themselves why they didn't have a better record than wrestlers back in 1998 and still don't today.

    Both BJJ and Wrestling are effective and necessary components of MMA competition. I'm tired of BJJ stylists acting like they have some magic power. Without Muay Thai, kickboxing, boxing, Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, etc. we wouldn't have the MMA we have today. BJJ is not a greater part than these other parts.

    It's great that the Gracie family started having Vale Tudo and UFC tournaments back in the day and everything. We owe them for that. However, their contribution to the actual game is not larger than anyone else's. BJJ didn't invent the arm bar, the triangle, the Kimura, the RNC or the single-leg takedown. All that stuff was around before BJJ existed. The only really significant contribution of BJJ to the fighting game is the guard and mount strategy. Also, the accompanying sweeps. The Gracie family did not invent groundfighting.

    In 1993-1998, the guard looked more like a bear hug with a flailing heel to the kidneys. Back when groin strikes were legal and there weren't weight classes it all looked different. Some of the modern innovations of the sport wouldn't hold up under the old rules.

    What I'm saying is that BJJ stylists need to quit being so cocky and join the rest of us who love learning as much as we can from as many people as we can. MMA has evolved past the point where style snobs can avoid looking stupid. BJJ is not a more integral part of MMA competition than any other part. BJJ stylists shouldn't act like they own the sport. They don't. They never have.
    Last edited by 9chambers; 6/14/2006 8:33am at . Reason: type o
  2. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:35am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some of us need to evolve by joining a real school instead of rolling around in your backyard like a ****** falling down a hill.
  3. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:38am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a better fighter than you.
  4. Mr. Jones is offline
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    resident sick ****

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Asia wrote something similar earlier 9chambers. I don't know if you remember it.
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6481
  5. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:44am

    supporting member
     Style: na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    I'm a better fighter than you.
    No, I vote for you are a fucking moron. I hope you die before you breed your brand of stupid into the world.
  6. Shaolinz is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:45am


     Style: Muay Thai , BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    V: Top 15 Fighters, by Wins

    Royce Gracie Jujutsu 11-0-1 100%
    Don Frye Wrestling 9-1-0 90%
    Dan Severn Wrestling 9-3-0 75%
    Regardless of the stats of the art as a whole. This right here is the gracie claim to domination. Hoyce is also a horrible horrible BJJ fighter. During his training for the Hughes fight he was given 2 brown belts to train with who proceeded to tap him out over and over again so they were sent back to Brazil. Thats the other claim to domination. They sent their gimp and he did good.
  7. Shaolinz is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:45am


     Style: Muay Thai , BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and yes I know I wrote Hoyce and not Royce but I'll be damned if my edit button ever works.
  8. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:47am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought you brought some good insight to an old topic, 9chambers, thanks.

    Thanks for digging up the stats.

    The tournament I was in the other week, SHOOTO Grappling did better on the day than BJJ... in a BJJ tournament... Actually I exaggerate, but there was this one shooto guy with a white belt on, who tapped everyone in the white belt division, then everyone in the blue belt division, then everyone in the absolute division.

    It was fucking awesome.

    The shooto grapplers here in Japan are very very good, at least as good as the BJJers. Plus, they usually can fight standing up, too.
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
    Scramble Stuff
  9. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:48am

    supporting member
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, fighters should crosstrain and strive to be well-rounded? What a novel fucking idea! There is knowledge to gain outside of BJJ? Wow, thanks for enlightening us!.........I think you're preaching to the choir.

    I find it humorous that you rage against BJJ nutriding, and then illustrate how wrestling pawns all other styles.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:50am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah Mr. Jones, but that arguement was so last year, and look where we are now. Still the same ol' place. I'm in 100% agreement with 9chambers. I like BJJ and all and love it when their guys come in or I get a chance to roll with them at some other gym, but many do act like they own the right to MMA and that's just not true.
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