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  1. Yock is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 4:33pm


     Style: Wrestling, Sub Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pretend for a second that my two posts were related.

    There is no tapping in wrestling. Because of this when a wrestler, during a wrestling match gets in a position that really hurts, he tries one of two things: Either try to tough it out as long as possible, or free his limb/head/whatever by any means necessary. This is ingrained into their psyche to the point where there is no thought, it's reaction. When wrestlers start Jiu Jitsu, they take this mentality with them. It is not that they don't know that a move can cause serious damage, it is just the way they've been trained to react.

    Here's an example of what I meant in my second comment:
    When I first started Jiu Jitsu, during my first time on the mat the instructor decided to roll with me. Sure enough a few seconds in I found myself in a guillotine. As a wrestler, my instinct was to get my head free by any means necessary. Instead of choking the **** out of me the instructor said, "Just tap." So I did. It's not that I didn't think I was going to get choked out, it's just that I was so used to a choke not even being an option that it hadn't even entered my mind. I wasn't thinking Jiu Jitsu, I was thinking wrestling. I trained to react a certain way and when the instructor told me to tap, it snapped me out of it.

    Choking is one thing, but what if the first sub I fell into was an arm bar? Whenever I get my arm caught during a wrestling match I'm used to using everything under the sun to pull my arm out. Being in an arm lock doesn't even enter my mind, so I don't tap. The instructor gets to the point where any more pressure could pop my joint. Here he could either break my arm or tell me to tap. He's already got the position, I'm not about to escape, and it's a class. Breaking my arm isn't going to prove anything. Letting me know when to tap, when it's time to tap, just might change my mentality when going into a roll.
  2. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 5:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohff
    In my experience, those types are few and far between.
    They do exist though.
    I remember when I first got started, there was this one blue belt that would constantly jump guard. He tapped me quite a bit. One day I told myself I wasn't going to get tapped, and glued myself to his hips inside his closed guard. Now, admittedly, I didn't do a damn thing, but I didn't get tapped either. He was furious, and asked me repeatedly why I was stalling. I didn't respond.
    Because you were stalling. That's fine, he needs to learn how to work out of that. You seem to be arguing that they're equivalent though. THey aren't. By pulling guard your opponent was pushing the action and taking the offensive.

    You just sat there.
  3. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 5:47pm

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     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yock
    Pretend for a second that my two posts were related.

    There is no tapping in wrestling. Because of this when a wrestler, during a wrestling match gets in a position that really hurts, he tries one of two things: Either try to tough it out as long as possible, or free his limb/head/whatever by any means necessary. This is ingrained into their psyche to the point where there is no thought, it's reaction. When wrestlers start Jiu Jitsu, they take this mentality with them. It is not that they don't know that a move can cause serious damage, it is just the way they've been trained to react.
    That's cool. But, when in Rome...

    And as has been said before, the ones that do adjust get good very fast. It's the ones that don't adjust that have problems.

    Here's an example of what I meant in my second comment:
    When I first started Jiu Jitsu, during my first time on the mat the instructor decided to roll with me. Sure enough a few seconds in I found myself in a guillotine. As a wrestler, my instinct was to get my head free by any means necessary. Instead of choking the **** out of me the instructor said, "Just tap." So I did. It's not that I didn't think I was going to get choked out, it's just that I was so used to a choke not even being an option that it hadn't even entered my mind. I wasn't thinking Jiu Jitsu, I was thinking wrestling. I trained to react a certain way and when the instructor told me to tap, it snapped me out of it.
    Good for you.

    Choking is one thing, but what if the first sub I fell into was an arm bar? Whenever I get my arm caught during a wrestling match I'm used to using everything under the sun to pull my arm out. Being in an arm lock doesn't even enter my mind, so I don't tap. The instructor gets to the point where any more pressure could pop my joint. Here he could either break my arm or tell me to tap. He's already got the position, I'm not about to escape, and it's a class. Breaking my arm isn't going to prove anything. Letting me know when to tap, when it's time to tap, just might change my mentality when going into a roll.
    I really don't know where you're getting this whole arguement from. BJJ isn't a trap for wrestlers. Just like with all newbies, they roll with upper belts who can take it easy on them and guide them through wrestling that includes submissions. The idea that BJJ guys are secretly waiting for a wrestler to show up so they can break him in half is unfounded. Like it's been said before, assholes get what they deserve. People who come to learn will get taught.

    Just like if a TKDer came to a boxing gym and acted like an asshole, he'd get KTFO. If he came in to learn, he'd get taught. It's pretty simple.
    Last edited by Poop Loops; 6/15/2006 5:51pm at .
  4. CaliKyle is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 5:47pm


     Style: Can't afford one yet

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, this thread totally clears up this season of TUF for me.

    Matt Hamill was/is a really accomplished wrestler. He was also seriously pissing off the guys in sparring class because he always went 100% in every single drill. No one understood why he'd never go easy, even when he was asked to.

    It all makes sense now.
  5. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 5:54pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He was a slightly more accompalished a wrestler than Nickles was a submission specialist...
  6. Yock is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 6:25pm


     Style: Wrestling, Sub Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Way back at the beginning of this thread the topic was something along the lines of how a wrestling mentality can create conflicts when in a Jiu Jitsu arena.

    I'm not arguing that Jiu Jitsu is a trap for wrestlers. I'm arguing that when a wrestler rolls with a Jiu Jitsu guy in a Jiu Jitsu class, some actions that could be mistaken as dick moves aren't. I'm also arguing that there are steps the Jiu Jitsu practitioner can take to figure out whether the wrestler truly is a dick before cranking on submissions, which was also hinted at earlier in the thread.
  7. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 7:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He might not be a dick, but he was told to go light. If a total newbie starts going apeshit, he'll get the same treatment as a wrestler who goes apeshit. No favors.
  8. daigoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 7:34pm


     Style: MT (no, not "empty")

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    He was a slightly more accompalished a wrestler than Nickles was a submission specialist...
    Or a "streetfighter" :eusa_liar
  9. Firebrand is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 7:34pm


     Style: BJJ, Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe so. Still, the wrestler should have been warned about the virtues of tapping before his arm was popped. If for no other reason than to minimize any risk to the school. At least the first time anyway.
    Last edited by Firebrand; 6/15/2006 7:36pm at .
  10. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 7:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dunno. Even in my first time rolling I knew that if I felt something going against my limb in the way it's not supposed to bend, I should tap. Hell, if anything I was guilty of tapping too early/too often when rolling, because I just wanted to start over from the knees and see what I could do to not end up in that situation again, rather than just struggle for 5 minutes in a poor posistion.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
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