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  1. #561
    DdlR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Boxing and Muay Thai practitioners were allowed to (and did) hit hard to the trachea and groin, barenuckled in the early UFCs. Nobody died. Few went to the hospital. A 'sport form' of Systema wouldn't be redundant, because you wouldn't need to start a new sport, just compete in the applicable sports that already exist, like MMA, submission grappling, San Shou, Kickboxing etc..
    I still reckon it's unlikely that someone interested in MMA fighting would bother training in Systema in the first place, but maybe it will happen eventually.

  2. #562
    DdlR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    Not my point when I call bullshit. If systema wants to make truthful claims then their claims should state something to the extent of "systema also incorporates techniques proven in the field from around the world" This gives us an idea that systema may or may not have come up with those techniques. I've seen their training methods. Nothing and I mean nothing shown on those videos matched what they do on those training tapes. I'll go into this more in my report.
    Omega,

    I've just started to look into Systema history; not the highly simplified version available on most Systema websites, which talk vaguely about Cossacks a thousand years ago etc., but the actual, verifiable history of the modern style. It's hard because most of the available info. is in Russian, but from what I've gleaned so far, Systema literally does include techniques proven in the field from around the world. How that happened in an interesting and very complicated story.

    Again, I honestly don't think that anyone is claiming that the "rear cut-down" shown in the police videos is somehow unique to Systema. The fact that an effective technique will be found in many styles can pretty much be taken for granted. The training methodology of the Strategos PCR course does seem to be unique to Systema, but that's a different issue.

    I don't agree that the rear cut-down doesn't match what is shown in the Systema training footage; turn the opponent's chin, tilt their head back and either swing or lower them to the ground, it's seen in many of the online Systema videos.
    Last edited by DdlR; 7/01/2006 4:19pm at .

  3. #563
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Omega,

    I've just started to look into Systema history; not the highly simplified version available on most Systema websites, which talk vaguely about Cossacks a thousand years ago etc., but the actual, verifiable history of the modern style. It's hard because most of the available info. is in Russian, but from what I've gleaned so far, Systema literally does include techniques proven in the field from around the world. How that happened in an interesting and very complicated story.
    Well, we don't really, what we have is records showing that the Russian marketers of this style say they trained some Russian troops in it. We have some evidence that a strongly built british cop with 30 years MA experience can punch a less experienced and more lightly built WC/Judo practitioner on the nose hard enough for the fight to get stopped due to bleeding, and some videos of seminars. Some of the seminar stuff was questionable in the opinion of assembled pros, and some of it, at least to me, was of interest.

    What we don't have is footage of people who's primary training was in Systema being able to defeat well-matched opponents under some reasonably realistic set of rules.
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  4. #564
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    Well, we don't really, what we have is records showing that the Russian marketers of this style say they trained some Russian troops in it.
    I'm not bothering with the marketing hype, I'm looking into the actual history of Russian martial arts and combat sports since about 1900. Big topic - there's some quality historical info. is out there, but like I said, a lot of it is in Russian. It will be a while before I have a real handle on that subject.

    We have some evidence that a strongly built british cop with 30 years MA experience can punch a less experienced and more lightly built WC/Judo practitioner on the nose hard enough for the fight to get stopped due to bleeding, and some videos of seminars. Some of the seminar stuff was questionable in the opinion of assembled pros, and some of it, at least to me, was of interest.

    What we don't have is footage of people who's primary training was in Systema being able to defeat well-matched opponents under some reasonably realistic set of rules.
    Yes, I agree on all points, although I think there is still some confusion here between RobP and Paul Genge as seen in the 2005 UK throwdown footage.

    At the risk of being redundant, I think that the reason why we don't have footage of Systema people fighting in MMA contests is that Systema isn't a combat sport and doesn't tend to attract people who are primarily interested in combat sports. Athletes aiming to excel in UFC-type competitions gravitate towards styles that are ideally suited to those contests, such as BJJ, SAMBO, boxing, Muay Thai, etc.

    The ring effectiveness of all of these styles is easily proven because the fights happen in public arenas and there are plenty of video cameras at the ready to record what happened. The chances of there being a video camera on the scene to record Systema in action during a street fight, riot, whatever are slim; at this stage, the police camera footage on the Strategos page is the closest we can get.
    Last edited by DdlR; 7/01/2006 6:19pm at .

  5. #565
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    You understand that sounds somewhat strange. I have Genge's throwdown clip on my computer. That is only 17 seconds long. There is visibly one other person videotaping in clip. That's two people videotaping the event, and yet there is no other evidence of the systema fighters at the throwdown. I'm not trying to make conspiracy. I'm just trying to figure out the what happened to the other footage. It could be the beat all and end in this discussion.

    Cullion
    Is it fair if we match regular systema guys against for amateur mma guys? From the 17 of the Genge clip, the guy he was fighting looked like a scrub (looked it operative word). What I'm trying to say is how can we accurately gauge skill level in finding our proof?
    Last edited by mrblackmagic; 7/01/2006 6:46pm at .

  6. #566
    Cullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblackmagic
    You understand that sounds somewhat strange. I have Genge's throwdown clip on my computer. That is only 17 seconds long. There is visibly one other person videotaping in clip. That's two people videotaping the event, and yet there is no other evidence of the systema fighters at the throwdown. I'm not trying to make conspiracy. I'm just trying to figure out the what happened to the other footage. It could be the beat all and end in this discussion.
    I wasn't there, so I can't say what happened to the other footage or am in a position to give an objective commentary on how the other people did. I'm trying to be fair to both sides by calling things as I saw them based on written replies to points and publicly visible pics and video footage.

    Cullion
    Is it fair if we match regular systema guys against for amateur mma guys? From the 17 of the Genge clip, the guy he was fighting looked like a scrub (looked it operative word). What I'm trying to say is how can we accurately gauge skill level in finding our proof?
    Just more footage of anybody from Systema sparring with anybody whose primary training was in somthing else would be good at this point.
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  7. #567
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    There were several clips from the UK throwdown linked to from the Bullshido thread that followed that event - http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...tema+throwdown . They were originally uploaded to a site called completemartialartist.com, but that site seems to have gone under at some point during the past year. It looks like RobP himself was responsible for getting the clips online, so maybe he could be persuaded to upload them again.

    If anyone else has links to the footage, it would be interesting to see it as this seems to have been the only time Systema fighters have gone up against other styles in a throwdown environment.
    Last edited by DdlR; 7/01/2006 7:05pm at .

  8. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I wasn't there, so I can't say what happened to the other footage or am in a position to give an objective commentary on how the other people did. I'm trying to be fair to both sides by calling things as I saw them based on written replies to points and publicly visible pics and video footage.



    Just more footage of anybody from Systema sparring with anybody whose primary training was in somthing else would be good at this point.
    I was actually directing the footage issue towards DdlR.

    The part below your name was to you.

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