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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2006 3:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Systema - Questions Answered"

    http://www.systemaquestionsanswered.co.uk/

    This is a promo. for a new DVD produced by British self defense instructor Richard Grannon, which proposes to answer some of the questions about Systema that have appeared in online forum debates over the years. According to the site, Mr. Grannon has studied quite a wide range of martial arts including Shito-ryu karate, jujitsu, aikido, ninjutsu, Muay Thai and BJJ, and works as a security consultant and doorman.

    The promo. page includes an excerpt from the DVD in which Mr. Grannon is shown attempting various attacks against Systema teacher Paul Genge, as well as an "interview"-style clip in which he explains the reasons for making the DVD and offers some observations about Systema.

    Disregarding the sales hype and assuming that this was an honest attempt by a non-Systema practitioner to investigate/"pressure test" the art, it might be of some value to people who have a skeptical interest in the Russian style.
    Last edited by DdlR; 6/13/2006 3:55pm at .
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  2. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2006 3:56pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is what I said in the original thread for this clip which got moved to the troll forum. I think it is an interesting point that all skeptics need to remember when they watch these sort of things.

    "What is really interesting to me is that in the video the guy says he is an NLP practitioner. NLP is a type of self hypnosis. People that are especially receptive to hypnosis are the most easily stopped by things like systema and no-touch KOs."
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  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/13/2006 4:03pm

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    WhiteShark,

    I don't know a great deal about NLP, but it seems to me that an experienced practitioner would be wise to various forms of psychological manipulation; it would be like trying to fool a magician with a card trick.
      #3
  4. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/13/2006 4:06pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I actually know a fair bit about NLP, though not formally trained or a practitioner, and the characterization that Whiteshark has made isn't accurate about NLP not on the effects of hypnosis and its possible relationship to somewhat dubious martial arts practices.

    White... feel free to contact me in PM if you want to dig a bit deeper.
      #4
  5. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 2:28am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since this guy believes in pseudo-scientific blather like NLP I would be inclined to skepticism about any 'investigation' he may have performed.
      #5
  6. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:26am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    I actually know a fair bit about NLP, though not formally trained or a practitioner, and the characterization that Whiteshark has made isn't accurate about NLP not on the effects of hypnosis and its possible relationship to somewhat dubious martial arts practices.

    White... feel free to contact me in PM if you want to dig a bit deeper.
    Which part am I wrong about?
    I know I'm right about the no-touch KO people being extra sensetive to hypnosis. I've seen Hypnotists "debunk" no-touch KOs by hypnotising people for identical results. The Hypnosis sensitivity is also the reason no-touch KOs work best on the teachers own students.

    Or is it my statement that NLP is a type of Self-hypnosis? I may be overstating it but they are definatley related here is a paragraph from an NLP source site where they list NLP techniques:
    "Milton-Model
    A set of linguistic patterns derived from Milton Erickson, the father of modern hypnotherapy. These language patterns are used to help guide someone without interfering with how they are experiencing it in their minds. For example, "Think of time you were laughing." It doesn't define when or how hard you were laughing so it applies to everyone (I hope). The Milton-model helps with maintaining rapport and is often used in hypnotic or trance state sessions."

    I feel no need to take the conversation to PM because I strongly believe in public discourse.

    Source: http://www.nlpinfo.com/
      #6
  7. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 8:37am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    Which part am I wrong about?
    I know I'm right about the no-touch KO people being extra sensetive to hypnosis. I've seen Hypnotists "debunk" no-touch KOs by hypnotising people for identical results. The Hypnosis sensitivity is also the reason no-touch KOs work best on the teachers own students.
    The bigger problem is that there aren't actually "hypnotically senstive" and "hypnotically insensitive" people. That was simply an excuse used by bad hypnotists to explain why they could gt some people to enter trance while they couldn't get others. Everyone moves in and out of various states of perception all the time, it's just a matter of knowing how to move someone where you want to go.

    I've known a few stage hypnotists and know a bit about how you select people for acts. It isn't that you're looking for people who are more senstive to being hypnotized but rather you're looking for people who really want to do zany things on stage and just need a little push.

    Most "No touch" knockdowns are a version of the same collapse anchoring that you see guys like Benny Hind do. With that I have no argument. But the idea that some folks are more suseptable to that sort of thing verses others is flawed. It's all in the presentation, not in the method

    Or is it my statement that NLP is a type of Self-hypnosis?
    It's a subcomponent to NLP, but it isn't the only or even the major part of the field.

    One of my favorite overviews of the field is up at

    http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html

    I like it mostly because it isn't sympathetic but still manages to cover most of the basics.
      #7
  8. WhiteShark is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 9:47am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fitz, I'm still not clear on your positon.

    I am sayng that the "skeptic" in the video may not be a good candidate as a neutral party. I cite his involvment in NLP as a reason for this. I assume that his beliefs about mental programming and his ability to learn mental programs quickly from NLP practice would make him an ideal candidate for Systema manipulation. Furthermore, he is now a systema associate who is selling the DVD for a profit.

    What part of that do you disagree with?
      #8
  9. porch is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 10:51am


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    I have to disagree with you, Fitz. Some people are more susceptible to hypnosis than others.

    The power of hypnosis is nothing more than the power of suggestion. The only thing that distinguishes hypnosis from "non-hypnotic" suggestion is some sort of induction, eg, "Listen only to the sound of my voice" or "You are feeling sleepy". Note that these instructions are, in themselves, suggestions. The hypnotic induction (preliminary suggestions) does increase suggestibility, and pave the way for further suggestions. The concept of a "trance" or "hypnotic state", however, is a useless one. Just a clarification of terms, there.

    I agree with you that willingness to participate is a factor in suggestibility. It is not the only factor.

    http://www.rossinst.com/des.htm

    Hypnotizability and dissociation are linked to each other, so it is not surprising that the DES yields scores that vary with age the way hypnotizability does.
    Everybody has a ranking on the Dissociative Experiences Scale (if they take the test). Being more dissociative can have benefits. It can help you block out pain. It is correlated with having a more vivid imagination, which can be a bonus for the artistically inclined. It also makes one more prone to suggestibility, for better or worse.
      #9
  10. RobP is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 11:08am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark
    Fitz, I'm still not clear on your positon.

    his ability to learn mental programs quickly from NLP practice would make him an ideal candidate for Systema manipulation.
    Lol!!!wtf do you think we do, hypnotise everyone who comes to classes, workshops, training?

    Are you feeling sleeeeeppyy now?
      #10
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