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  1. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 4:18pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Uh, you're wrong. It depends on how you use it in a strategy and the type of hook.
    Uh, no, I'm not. The reason the "straight blast" creates forward pressure is because you are coming forward behind straight punches, the structure of which prevents the opponent from coming into you. Hooks do not do this.

    Yes, I do agree that no amount of training in anything can defend you from someone intent on lightly grabbing your shoulder and completely failing to seal the remaining distance.
    Training in footwork and clinchwork can allow you to keep the fight out of clinch range. Training in chi sao does not teach you to keep the fight in chi sao range, and gives you no tools to do so. He did, in fact, "seal the remaining distance", in that he came forward past "sticking hands" range, and remained there until the chunner pushed off him with a forearm - which immediately placed them both /outside/ "sticking hands" range. The chunner was unable to strike off of sticking hand, couldn't maintain it for longer than a second, and gained no advantage whatsoever from it, since he had to go on to something else to defend the clinch. It was completely ineffective.... like it pretty much always is against anyone other than another chunner.

    Not much of an analogy needed. In Chum Kil you stick your forearm out in exactly the way he did to jam his forward motion.
    So his ability to shove somebody away with a forearm to the face is a result of his training to place his forearms on top of each other at nipple level and turn from side to side, with a completely different motion, placement, energy, and trajectory than was actually used?

    Uh, no. Once you learn a form, no special repetition is needed or desirable except to keep from forgetting the movements and their feel. If your goal is performing the form you want to do it over and over again, but then again, that's not really a combative goal. I know karate has a great big hardon for doing your forms over and over again, but it's not really what you do in CMA unless your goal is performance oriented. Lots of CMA *is* performance oriented, and you're likely to get a mix in any given school. In my experience, about 10% of class time goes to forms, and the vast majority of that is entirely new material, not repetition of old material.
    This still doesn't answer the question - if you're not using the techniques from the forms, why are you training them at all? If you are supposed to be using the techniques from the forms, then why aren't they?
  2. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 4:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Uh, no, I'm not. The reason the "straight blast" creates forward pressure is because you are coming forward behind straight punches, the structure of which prevents the opponent from coming into you. Hooks do not do this.
    by pressure, do you mean a strike landing on the opponent's guard, or do you mean creating fear in the opponent and making him back away?

    By the latter definition, even alternating hooks can create forward pressure, from the opponent's fear of standing to be struck by them.
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  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 5:14pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Uh, no, I'm not. The reason the "straight blast" creates forward pressure is because you are coming forward behind straight punches, the structure of which prevents the opponent from coming into you. Hooks do not do this.
    Yeah, you are wrong. Shovel hooks and hooks thrown from an angle are common. Some "hooks" for this purpose are really more of a modified cross or overhand with a bit more circularity in the motion.

    Training in footwork and clinchwork can allow you to keep the fight out of clinch range. Training in chi sao does not teach you to keep the fight in chi sao range, and gives you no tools to do so. He did, in fact, "seal the remaining distance", in that he came forward past "sticking hands" range, and remained there until the chunner pushed off him with a forearm - which immediately placed them both /outside/ "sticking hands" range. The chunner was unable to strike off of sticking hand, couldn't maintain it for longer than a second, and gained no advantage whatsoever from it, since he had to go on to something else to defend the clinch. It was completely ineffective.... like it pretty much always is against anyone other than another chunner.
    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, as I define a clinch as something that actually works, rather than what happened in the video.

    So his ability to shove somebody away with a forearm to the face is a result of his training to place his forearms on top of each other at nipple level and turn from side to side, with a completely different motion, placement, energy, and trajectory than was actually used?
    No, it's pretty much the same as some movements from chum kil that I've seen. And his forearm was to the guy's chest, not his face, just at the level it is in chum kil.

    This still doesn't answer the question - if you're not using the techniques from the forms, why are you training them at all? If you are supposed to be using the techniques from the forms, then why aren't they?
    No, it does answer the question by saying:

    1) Your assumptions about how forms training works is wrong, as it is not a matter of repetition to create a reflexive response. It isn't trained the way you think it is, so your critique of it as developing motor skills that do not directly apply is irrelevant. You develop motor skills by drilling, sparring and solo work with functional techniques.

    2) It varies from art to art. CMA is a very, very broad practice. Some styles really have more to to with Taoist religious rituals and theatrics than fighting. There is also a great deal of variety within each art. Some people come into the arts with varying goals and they will train to those goals. Unlike some on this board, it doesn't really bother me one way or another that someone beside me has no interest in developing functional skill, as long as they do not interfere with my own, personal goal of doing so.

    3) You learn forms so you have a set of reference movements to develop into your own techniques. You do not merely rely on the game you received from your trainer or teacher.
  4. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/14/2006 9:50pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Yeah, you are wrong. Shovel hooks and hooks thrown from an angle are common.
    They may be common, but they still don't force the opponent backwards, because they are coming in from the side. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.

    I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, as I define a clinch as something that actually works, rather than what happened in the video.
    If we're going to define things strictly on whether or not they work, then no one has ever done "sticking hands". Since it doesn't.

    No, it's pretty much the same as some movements from chum kil that I've seen. And his forearm was to the guy's chest, not his face, just at the level it is in chum kil.
    It was on his neck; jesus, open your fucking eyes. This is getting tiresome.


    No, it does answer the question by saying:

    1) Your assumptions about how forms training works is wrong, as it is not a matter of repetition to create a reflexive response. It isn't trained the way you think it is,
    Except that, in the three or four Wing Chun schools of various lineages I've personally sat in classes in, and the fifteen or so that I've seen video footage of, and in the countless articles written by various well-respected Wing Chun sifus about the way to train, it /is/ in fact trained the way I think it is. I guess they're not "teh real _ing _un".

    so your critique of it as developing motor skills that do not directly apply is irrelevant. You develop motor skills by drilling, sparring and solo work with functional techniques.
    If you do something over and over, the movements you are repeating will become ingrained. If you do a form over and over, the movements in it will become ingrained. In the case of Wing Chun, this creates terrible habits in terms of punching and hand placement.
  5. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 8:45am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    They may be common, but they still don't force the opponent backwards, because they are coming in from the side. I'm not sure what you're not getting here.
    When you use a shovel hook or deliver a hook while angling yourself, they do come in from the front on a rough 45 degree angle. If you keep your hook tight enough to be a cross or overhand variation (which is the kind of thing that's actually in the video) they'll enter that way anyway.

    If we're going to define things strictly on whether or not they work, then no one has ever done "sticking hands". Since it doesn't.
    You also don't buttscoot or sprawl over and over again. That's roughly equivalent to the extended chi sao you're looking for.

    It was on his neck; jesus, open your fucking eyes. This is getting tiresome.
    I'm not talking about the karate guy in the white pants. I'm talking about the WC guy, who at :31 is using his forearm to keep karate guy from sealing the remaining distance. After karate guy fails to seal the distance to throw and can't kick effectively, they part -- and the WC guy establishes contact distance *again*. He effectively smothers any handwork from the "clinch."

    Except that, in the three or four Wing Chun schools of various lineages I've personally sat in classes in, and the fifteen or so that I've seen video footage of, and in the countless articles written by various well-respected Wing Chun sifus about the way to train, it /is/ in fact trained the way I think it is. I guess they're not "teh real _ing _un".
    Sure. That's a critique of the culture of Wing Chun, not the delivery system.

    If you do something over and over, the movements you are repeating will become ingrained. If you do a form over and over, the movements in it will become ingrained. In the case of Wing Chun, this creates terrible habits in terms of punching and hand placement.
    Well, I guess I better drop plans to take up ballroom dancing with my wife, since it will ruin me as a fighter. Because, y'know, people are too stupid to use different motor skill habits in specific contexts. This is like saying that holding pads or any number of training practices will ruin your game.

    A form is not a pretend fight and is not meant to be trained or thought of that way. In any event you don't do the form "over and over" compared to just about anything else. Form training involves the *least* amount of repetition unless your goal is to train it for performance.
  6. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 11:00am

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    When you use a shovel hook or deliver a hook while angling yourself, they do come in from the front on a rough 45 degree angle.
    That's not what he was doing, though.

    If you keep your hook tight enough to be a cross or overhand variation (which is the kind of thing that's actually in the video) they'll enter that way anyway.
    If you kept your hook "tight enough to be a cross", it would be a cross, not a hook. His punches were not crosses, or overhands, they were looping hooks that entered from the side.

    You also don't buttscoot or sprawl over and over again. That's roughly equivalent to the extended chi sao you're looking for.
    Actually, you do sprawl over and over again, if your opponent is shooting over and over again. But my point remains - if you're going to say that the opponent didn't clinch because it's only a clinch if it "works", I'm going to say the Wing Chun guy wasn't doing sticking hands, because he A) didn't strike off of it, B) didn't prevent the opponent from coming forward inside of sticking hands range, C) didn't trap or establish a superior position, and D) didn't make it effective for anything.



    Anyway, let us try a thought experiment. A Judo black belt trains for several years at a Hung Gar academy. He then fights in an amateur MMA match, claiming Judo as his primary style, and knocks his opponent out with a Chop Choi, after trying a few unsuccessful throws. If I then post that match and shout "See! Judo has excellent striking!" are people going to take my argument seriously? If I then claim that, despite his Hung Gar training, the striking was Judo due to it adhering to the judo principles of off-balancing and maximum effect, minimum effort, are people going to take my argument seriously? If I point to parts of Judo kata that kind of, sort of look a little like Chop Choi, are people going to take my argument seriously?
  7. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 12:23pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    That's not what he was doing, though.
    I see his shots being mostly tight and to the front, with one hitting the ribs on a rough 45 degree angle. So yeah, it is.

    If you kept your hook "tight enough to be a cross", it would be a cross, not a hook. His punches were not crosses, or overhands, they were looping hooks that entered from the side.
    This enters into a world of semantic discussion on which punches are what, which is fairly irrelevant.

    Actually, you do sprawl over and over again, if your opponent is shooting over and over again.
    One after the other without any gaps or pauses would be a hell of a thing to see, that's for sure.

    But my point remains - if you're going to say that the opponent didn't clinch because it's only a clinch if it "works", I'm going to say the Wing Chun guy wasn't doing sticking hands, because he A) didn't strike off of it, B) didn't prevent the opponent from coming forward inside of sticking hands range, C) didn't trap or establish a superior position, and D) didn't make it effective for anything.
    Everything you said is contradicted by the video, which I'm beginning to suspect you aren't watching that closely. He hits at :31 with the arm that folds into the chum kil position, then hits with a tan sau/hammer at :33 (as the chubby guy is walking into the shot) during the disengagement. The karate guy can't get close enough to reap the leg effectively and gets an uppercut in.

    Anyway, let us try a thought experiment. A Judo black belt trains for several years at a Hung Gar academy. He then fights in an amateur MMA match, claiming Judo as his primary style, and knocks his opponent out with a Chop Choi, after trying a few unsuccessful throws. If I then post that match and shout "See! Judo has excellent striking!" are people going to take my argument seriously? If I then claim that, despite his Hung Gar training, the striking was Judo due to it adhering to the judo principles of off-balancing and maximum effect, minimum effort, are people going to take my argument seriously? If I point to parts of Judo kata that kind of, sort of look a little like Chop Choi, are people going to take my argument seriously?
    Nope. Then again, it's irrelevant, as Orr's site is straight up about what informs his base, which is wing chun, FMA and catch. So it's nothing like a judoka going and training in hung gar at all. If your argument is that Orr's crew is secretly training in something outside of those arts despite advertizing and using them, then this argument is getting kind of crazy, isn't it?
  8. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 12:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Nope. Then again, it's irrelevant, as Orr's site is straight up about what informs his base, which is wing chun, FMA and catch. So it's nothing like a judoka going and training in hung gar at all. If your argument is that Orr's crew is secretly training in something outside of those arts despite advertizing and using them, then this argument is getting kind of crazy, isn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr
    I would like to give great thanks to my N.H.B Sensei Eddy Millis of Shark Tank LA.
    He has completed my skills with his endless knowledge and great teaching ability.
    http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/intro/introduction.html

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.sharktankusa.com
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  9. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/15/2006 1:03pm


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    Point taken.

    I suppose I'd be hard pressed to find any wing chun in those fights aside from the straight blast, entering punches in several of the fights, intermittent chi sao, the chum kil stance and simultaneous blocking and striking, and the use of circular movements and jamming from the wing chun curriculum.

    This also means Orr is a big fat liar when he's pushing this:

    http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/produc...ngcgundvd.html

    Or maybe, just maybe, Orr uses Wing Chun as his foundation and is making the system work.
  10. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/19/2006 1:08pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Point taken.

    I suppose I'd be hard pressed to find any wing chun in those fights aside from the straight blast, entering punches in several of the fights, intermittent chi sao, the chum kil stance and simultaneous blocking and striking, and the use of circular movements and jamming from the wing chun curriculum.
    Yes, a series of right hooks, chi sao attempts that didn't work, a boxing stance, and ineffective attempts at jamming, followed by roundhouse kicks, knees from the thai clinch, and wins via armbar and gnp are surely testaments to effective wing chun.

    This also means Orr is a big fat liar when he's pushing this:

    http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/produc...ngcgundvd.html

    Or maybe, just maybe, Orr uses Wing Chun as his foundation and is making the system work.
    Or maybe, just maybe, someone with a long history of Wing Chun before training at an MMA gym, who uses no recognizable Wing Chun techniques when he fights, and who credits Matt Furey for "energiz[ing him] with an inner power that continues to develop" might not be entirely forthright in his advertising.
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