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  1. Shooter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2003 8:50pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kail, that could have been one of Yang Jwing-Ming's books. I'm not sure though. I've never read it, unless you're talking about his Chin-na book. That one is quite good.


    The book I was referring to is Liang's. Very basic stuff.

    Xuanlong Xian, Fast-wrestling is as you guessed. The name itself is what I always heard my sifu use to describe clinch-work and throwing - "Get it done"
      #21
  2. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2003 9:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I couldn't disagree with you guys more about BJJ. There are vast tactical differences between individuals, and as far as I'm concerned ALL grappling contests between athletes of equivalent ability are slow because of that equivalence. I think that's most of what you see in BJJ...and others.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
      #22
  3. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2003 9:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nah. The reason I hate BJJ (respect it just don't like it) is because of that really annoyingly conservative style they have. When I've rolled with BJJ, it's like a real slow chess match. Small adjustments, wait for openings. The couple wreslers I rolled with were WAY more active. Allways trying things, trying to MAKE openings, tiring me out.

    BAH ! Puny Humans !
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


      #23
  4. Xuanlong Xian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2003 9:51pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isn't deliberately taking the fight to the ground slower by nature than doing the "clinch-work and throwing" Shooter speaks of?
      #24
  5. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2003 10:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ideally, your takedown will incapacitate your opponent. But more often, you may simply follow him down. This is where BJJ comes in. I would argue that BJJ is inherently slower than other grappling because the goal is a decisive fight-finisher rather than point for throws or pins.

    "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever."
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
      #25
  6. kryptiq is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2003 12:26am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So I've just ordered "Chinese Fast Wrestling for Fighting: The Art of San Shou Kuai Jiao" - the book looks great (can't wait to try it!) but according to some reviews the techniques are pretty mean. Apparently the throws are quick and dirty - effective but in some of the moves, the opponent has his/her limbs tied up so they can't break-fall properly. I guess I'll have to stick with throwing on a matt.
      #26
  7. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2003 12:40am


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what exactly is the definition of slow here? the amount of time that it takes to defeat someone?

    that is entirely relative.

    "contests between athletes of equivalent ability are slow because of that equivalence."

    absolutely, because of the countering capacity that each possesses. someone has to screw up before a advangtage can be taken and capatilized upon.

    "Ideally, your takedown will incapacitate your opponent."

    a good throw or takedown on concrete or the like is liable to do just that. on mats, in competition however, with those that are trained to fall, this is not likely.

    striking the opponent as he lands or immediately afterwards can easily finish the engagement.

    i'm failing to understand how any effective art could be considered slow. you could say that a striking technique is faster than a grappling technique and that would be generally true. but that is as far as you can go with the concept of slowness in arts.

    countering is what makes fights take a long time.

    another consideration that can make a fight 'slow' is inefficient fighting, and fear.

    peace.

    " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"
      #27
  8. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2003 12:50am


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Isn't deliberately taking the fight to the ground slower by nature than doing the "clinch-work and throwing" Shooter speaks of?"

    if the intent is to take the opponent down to the ground, follow him, mount, and submit by strike or technique, then yes, it is slower. inherently.

    because you bypass multiple opportunities to finish:

    1)standup striking in long, medium, and short range
    2)standing locks.
    3)disabling throws.
    4)interrupting the throw with a strike(commonly executed by striking him with the knee, or dropping him on it.
    5)striking immediately as he hits the ground. often multiple strikes opportunities exist. and one creates another.

    then of course, newaza.

    in actuality, bjj could end a match as quickly as standing striking, but.....probably not.

    peace.

    " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"
      #28
  9. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2003 12:55am


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Apparently the throws are quick and dirty - effective but in some of the moves, the opponent has his/her limbs tied up so they can't break-fall properly."

    that's because they are not 'sport' technique. those are 'real' throws. of what use is a throw that is easily nullified by a simple breakfall?

    well,... one that is good for a nice, entertaining competition.

    peace.

    " a cow doesnt whinny, and a horse has no udder, back is to the sides, and sideways is straight ahead"
      #29
  10. Shooter is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2003 1:03am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fumbling and brain-farting when there are specific goals is a major factor. Like, if you give the opp too many options, you can create mental lapses in their flow.

    Then there's just plain, blissful ignorance as you move into a shape you haven't had anyone capitalize on before. I got my arm locked the same way twice in the same tourney (gi and no-gi absolute).

    The end can be as sudden in standing clinch and on the ground as it can with knock-out hitting.

    TCC's leg-work in standing clinch involves lots of leg-cutting, sweeping, breaking, and chopping. The same hitting methods are used on the ground while being side-mounted, holding with leg-press, or having the opp standing while you fight from your back.

    Bump and Elbow-strike are the main fa-jin methods we use in our ground-fighting. They follow the same 6 Harmonies pattern as they do while standing.


    It should be noted that fa-jin and hitting-proper are 2 very different methods of impaction.




    Edited by - Shooter on May 23 2003 01:13:04
      #30
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