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  1. Freakshow is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2006 11:11am


     Style: Box, Kickbox, No-gi BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamma
    If your gym or school or studio or dojo or whatever the hell you call it closes is your training over?

    With kata as your text book you can work on movement on your own. Not forever, but it beats the hell out of running and lifting weights. It makes you practice movements you use in fighting.
    I can't agree with you here. Physical conditioning is a huge part of being a fighter. Time spent running (or doing other cardio) and lifting weights can often be time very well spent.

    Kata training has been around a long, long assed time, and it will be around long after all of us are dirt.
    Same can be said of religion, but I don't do it, either. :icon_bigg
  2. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2006 11:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhamma
    This whole debate is stupid. People are going to do what they want, and train how they want. If you don't like it *yawn* I don't care.
    You may be dedicated to your traditionalist dogma which does kata because it's done.....
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  3. Mr. Jones is offline
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    resident sick ****

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2006 11:23am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kickcatcher in this kata the individual moves aren't drawn out.

    http://www.wakefield-aikido.co.uk/ga...ri-no-kata.avi
  4. ChanceDuBois is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2006 11:50am


     Style: bjj, judo and chinese MA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If low resistance reps and kata are the same thing why do Judo and Karate have different words for them?
    Kano's judo contained a lot of different things all called kata. There was the formal collection of historical techniques type stuff like the Renkoho waza (arresting techniques), idealised form type stuff like the Nage no kata (throwing techniques), even principle driven kata like the Itsutsu No Kata (forms of five) which are designed to make you think.

    However in Kano's mind kata was more than this..here is a quote from a passage by Donn Draeger who was given access to Kano's technical notes on judo:

    When speaking of the prearranged nature of kata, I found something in Jigoro Kano’s technical notes which was a "bombshell" to me -- at least until I thought it out. I pass it on to you. How many times have you heard a Judoist say, "kata.....nah. Never use it for training. I’m a believer in uchikomi as the best way to learn a technique"? Here’s the "bombshell": In the founder’s mind, uchikomi is kata. Think about it. In uchikomi we have nothing more than a prearranged method of working with our uke. We repeat certain actions against his more-or-less cooperative self. We both know what is going to happen.
    More than this, in Kano's mind kata and randori were inextricably linked. Kata, when not being used as a performance, were to be pre-arraged for the attacker but non-pre arranged for the defender to different degrees. ie for Kano it was a learning tool with different levels of resistance provided. Drilling of techniques basically.

    Judo also has different types of randori with different degree's of cooperation between uki and tori. Sometimes it is close to a shiai, sometimes it is done semi cooperatively to work timing, sometimes turns are taken throwing, sometimes only particular techniques are worked.

    In judo "kata" covers the entire spectrum from the organised katas to the drilling of single throws as uchi komi reps. Kata and judo are inseperable really as formalised by Kano.
  5. ChanceDuBois is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2006 11:56am


     Style: bjj, judo and chinese MA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, passing the guard is NOT the same as a 30 step pattern. Passing the guard is a short process that can be done in as little as three steps, depending on how you count. Three =/= 30. The moves are supposed to be done EXACTLY in that sequence, from start to finish. Knee under tailbone, open the guard, pass.
    Any pre-arranged sequence in a judo derived art is kata. I'm sorry you disagree with the interpretation of Kano. The two examples you are using here, while both "kata" in the technical sense have completely different purposes.

    The number of steps is not the decider of what is and is not kata. The pre-arrangement and idealisation of technique is what makes it kata. I am aware the word has fallen out of vogue due to its association with idiotic training but that is beside the point.
  6. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2006 10:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceDuBois
    The two examples you are using here, while both "kata" in the technical sense have completely different purposes.
    By modern usage however, one of these is kata, and the other is not. Whether or not this is in strict agreement with Kano, you agree that they are qualitively different, and it therefore does make sense to argue that one is useful and the other not so much.

    I'll also point out that uchi komi or guard passing drills are not formalised, fixed and passed down as an inviolate part of the system. It is this aspect of kata as well as the others that many people are arguing against.
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2006 10:38am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceDuBois
    I'm sorry you disagree with the interpretation of Kano.
    Judo would have effective Atemi-Waza if he was right all the time.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. ChanceDuBois is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2006 11:39am


     Style: bjj, judo and chinese MA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kata is preplanned activity concerned with idealised methods and ideas. In judo uchi komi are extremely formalised. Beginners learn specific basic stepping patterns and only later have enough idea of the concepts behind the basics and enough technique to be able to apply them freeform to a decent degree. Improvisation is based on the ingraining of basic formalised technique- kata. Uchi komi are used even by good judoka to re familiarise with proper form.

    In bjj guard passing is extremely formalised. Jiu-jitsu even names and formalises the specific passes. A beginner learns the basic idealised methods before being shown variants or being able to come up with their own answers based on internalised concepts. Form training (or drilling of the basics) is completely necessary in order to develop technique. However it doesn't work without increasing resistance drills and finally application is a fairly free environment.

    In some "trad" MA (some karate for example) the kata have somehow become the whole activity. There is no learning progression from form to free movement and there is no drilling with resistance. This is the only real problem, not the kata themselves. I think most of you on this thread just don't like the word kata because it has become associated with bad practice and misunderstanding.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2006 11:49am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceDuBois
    Kata is preplanned activity concerned with idealised methods and ideas. In judo uchi komi are extremely formalised. Beginners learn specific basic stepping patterns and only later have enough idea of the concepts behind the basics and enough technique to be able to apply them freeform to a decent degree. Improvisation is based on the ingraining of basic formalised technique- kata. Uchi komi are used even by good judoka to re familiarise with proper form.

    In bjj guard passing is extremely formalised. Jiu-jitsu even names and formalises the specific passes. A beginner learns the basic idealised methods before being shown variants or being able to come up with their own answers based on internalised concepts. Form training (or drilling of the basics) is completely necessary in order to develop technique. However it doesn't work without increasing resistance drills and finally application is a fairly free environment.

    In some "trad" MA (some karate for example) the kata have somehow become the whole activity. There is no learning progression from form to free movement and there is no drilling with resistance. This is the only real problem, not the kata themselves. I think most of you on this thread just don't like the word kata because it has become associated with bad practice and misunderstanding.
    No, you are trying to assign a new definition to techniques. Learning correct positioning is not kata.
  10. ChanceDuBois is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2006 11:52am


     Style: bjj, judo and chinese MA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually yes it is. The modern definition of kata is a corruption of the idea based on the stuff that you have seen called kata.

    Anything preplanned and done in order to ingrain an ideal method is a form of kata. This is the correct definition in judo based arts according to kano.
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